What are you guys towing?

[mtbikernate]

Oh smaller vehicles will get pushed around in general no doubt. My issue is only when people say that larger vehicles *stop* trailers, that lack trailer brakes, easier. I have investigated more than one accident when I asked the driver about their 2500+s trailer brakes and they look at me blankly.

Depends how far you take it. That bigger pickup absolutely can safely handle a much bigger load without trailer brakes than the Escape can. But both vehicles have limits.

It's like the uhaul installers who refused to put 7 pin wiring on a subaru crosstrek. Partly because they didn't want to run all the wires, but they also admonished me that if the load needed brakes that it was too heavy for that car. Except the load I intended to tow was below the vehicle's overall max, but also above the trailer brake requirement in the manual. No, I was not intending to tow a load the vehicle could not safely tow.

It's like with our Rangers. 3500lbs without brakes and 7500lbs with brakes (and a suitably rated receiver and hitch and controller). Our Rangers can safely handle a load much heavier than my old Subie could. Both with brakes and without brakes.

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[JimG_AZ]

The thing is any trailer that has a certain weight will jackknife behind *any* tow vehicle, if there is no trailer brake l, w/ controller. It's about weight, and length.

Newton's first law. An object at rest tends to remain at rest, an object in motion tends to remain in motion. Any trailer, of sufficient size, is going to use that ball hitch as a pivot point and essentially try to wrap around the tow vehicle and whether it's a Subaru Ascent or Ford F250 won't make a huge difference, if the trailer lacks trailer brakes and the tow vehicle lacks a controller.

Her is my guess on this, which may not mean a whole lot since I do not work in law enforcement or accident investigations. I would think to have a jackknife, the tow vehicle or the trailer would have to lose traction and skid sideways. So, with this being said, how would a lack of trailer brakes account for a loss of traction? I would think the most likely thing no trailer brakes would cause would be a significant increase in stopping distance or even brake failure due to fade. He would probably rear-end the car in front and then the trailer might jackknife. Since he was towing with a small tow vehicle, he may have had the brake controller gain and/or boost cranked up while on the highway. This works okay when hitting the trailer brakes at @ 65 mph, but when you drop below a certain speed, you will lock the trailer brakes up. This would cause a loss of traction at the trailer wheels. My guess would be an immediate hard brake along with an immediate lane change and the trailer brakes locking up. So, the tow vehicle would veer to the right or left and the trailer would want to go straight in its lost traction state. Another possibility would be the trailer brakes being out of adjustment where one side locked up and the other side did not.

 

[Juany118]

Her is my guess on this, which may not mean a whole lot since I do not work in law enforcement or accident investigations. I would think to have a jackknife, the tow vehicle or the trailer would have to lose traction and skid sideways. So, with this being said, how would a lack of trailer brakes account for a loss of traction? I would think the most likely thing no trailer brakes would cause would be a significant increase in stopping distance or even brake failure due to fade. He would probably rear-end the car in front and then the trailer might jackknife. Since he was towing with a small tow vehicle, he may have had the brake controller gain and/or boost cranked up while on the highway. This works okay when hitting the trailer brakes at @ 65 mph, but when you drop below a certain speed, you will lock the trailer brakes up. This would cause a loss of traction at the trailer wheels. My guess would be an immediate hard brake along with an immediate lane change and the trailer brakes locking up. So, the tow vehicle would veer to the right or left and the trailer would want to go straight in its lost traction state. Another possibility would be the trailer brakes being out of adjustment where one side locked up and the other side did not.

Trailers not having ABS can definitely be an issue, you really need to get the controller dialed in for your trailer. I tend to use very slow speed to figure that out. If in slow "stop and go" traffic, I feel that "thud" of the trailer brakes disengaging because they bound up so tight, I have it dialed too

Her is my guess on this, which may not mean a whole lot since I do not work in law enforcement or accident investigations. I would think to have a jackknife, the tow vehicle or the trailer would have to lose traction and skid sideways. So, with this being said, how would a lack of trailer brakes account for a loss of traction? I would think the most likely thing no trailer brakes would cause would be a significant increase in stopping distance or even brake failure due to fade. He would probably rear-end the car in front and then the trailer might jackknife. Since he was towing with a small tow vehicle, he may have had the brake controller gain and/or boost cranked up while on the highway. This works okay when hitting the trailer brakes at @ 65 mph, but when you drop below a certain speed, you will lock the trailer brakes up. This would cause a loss of traction at the trailer wheels. My guess would be an immediate hard brake along with an immediate lane change and the trailer brakes locking up. So, the tow vehicle would veer to the right or left and the trailer would want to go straight in its lost traction state. Another possibility would be the trailer brakes being out of adjustment where one side locked up and the other side did not.

Actually you would be surprised how many first time trailer people get one and don't realize they don't have a trailer brake controller. They just assume if they have a tow package, with a 7 pin connection, that they are set, not realizing that the actual controller is a separate component. Then you have those who don't realize that the controller may need to be adjusted for the particular trailer. Sadly some places just want to sell the trailer and won't tell the customer "oops you are missing something really important, come back when you get it."

 

[dtech]

FYI an article on trailer brake requirements by state and I believe that if you tow into a state that has low min requirements eg CA you can be cited for non compliance . When moving and towing a Uhaul trailer that probably was around 2k lbs loaded without trailer brakes I found the Ranger tow mode worked well in helping to maintaining control going down mountain passes. But laws are one thing and I think much relies on the competency of the individuals who tow but I would think getting into an accident towing a travel trailer would be a major hassle.

https://www.rvtravel.com/trailer-brake-laws-50-states-1100/

 

[notsolinear]

Her is my guess on this, which may not mean a whole lot since I do not work in law enforcement or accident investigations. I would think to have a jackknife, the tow vehicle or the trailer would have to lose traction and skid sideways. So, with this being said, how would a lack of trailer brakes account for a loss of traction? I would think the most likely thing no trailer brakes would cause would be a significant increase in stopping distance or even brake failure due to fade. He would probably rear-end the car in front and then the trailer might jackknife. Since he was towing with a small tow vehicle, he may have had the brake controller gain and/or boost cranked up while on the highway. This works okay when hitting the trailer brakes at @ 65 mph, but when you drop below a certain speed, you will lock the trailer brakes up. This would cause a loss of traction at the trailer wheels. My guess would be an immediate hard brake along with an immediate lane change and the trailer brakes locking up. So, the tow vehicle would veer to the right or left and the trailer would want to go straight in its lost traction state. Another possibility would be the trailer brakes being out of adjustment where one side locked up and the other side did not.

Also not an accident investigator, but I do have a background in physics and engineering: My intuition is that when the trailer is being pulled (hitch is in tension) that's what you'd call "stable equilibrium". When you're braking, without trailer brakes or insufficient trailer braking, and the hitch is in compression that would be "unstable equilibrium". The diagrams of the marble and the bowl here are very helpful. Another way to visualize it is to think about the behavior of the trailer driving forwards vs. backing up. It's effortless to have the trailer track straight behind you (in tension) because of stable equilibrium. But when backing up (hitch in compression) it takes constant adjustments of the wheel to keep the trailer straight behind you (unstable equilibrium).

In the situation where braking force from the trailer is less than braking force from the tow vehicle that hitch is in compression and inherently unstable. Even if you started braking with tow vehicle and trailer in a perfect line, it's a very unstable state so any little imbalance or bump will cause the hitch ball to pivot and from there now you have a lateral force that's going to keep trying to push it further to the side. The goal, as I see it, is to have the trailer brake adjusted so that it's always working just a bit harder than the tow vehicle brakes to keep that hitch in tension and stable.

 

[ControlNode]

Oh smaller vehicles will get pushed around in general no doubt. My issue is only when people say that larger vehicles *stop* trailers, that lack trailer brakes, easier. I have investigated more than one accident when I asked the driver about their 2500+s trailer brakes and they look at me blankly.

That reminds me of the face from the owner of an RV I was renting when I asked if the brakes have been serviced recently. He then said it does not have brakes. I was confused and about the cancel the rental, but decided to look as that size RV trailer (about 5,000 lb) should have them. Looking under it I saw the electric brake wires and said, well let's hook it up and I'll see if they activate manually from the truck. They did. In talking with him more he didn't even have a controller in his midsize (Chevy or Toyota if I remember right, maybe a 1/2 ton). I guess if he's never used the brakes they wouldn't need servicing.

 

[dtech]

That reminds me of the face from the owner of an RV I was renting when I asked if the brakes have been serviced recently. He then said it does not have brakes. I was confused and about the cancel the rental, but decided to look as that size RV trailer (about 5,000 lb) should have them. Looking under it I saw the electric brake wires and said, well let's hook it up and I'll see if they activate manually from the truck. They did. In talking with him more he didn't even have a controller in his midsize (Chevy or Toyota if I remember right, maybe a 1/2 ton). I guess if he's never used the brakes they wouldn't need servicing.

yeah when I was considering following the advice to rent before buying an RV I think thru RVshare , I told the owner that I didn't yet have a brake controller , it was also around a 5k lbs RV, he asked where I was going and he said "you should be ok" , the route did have some good sized hills, wonder if there would be liability issues had I rented and gotten in an accident. Knowing what I know now I'd never consider towing anything approaching 3k lbs without trailer brakes.

 

[ctechbob]

. I guess if he's never used the brakes they wouldn't need servicing.

Or seized solid.

Bet he went through pads on the truck at a pretty good rate if he did a lot of traveling with it.

Reminds me of my uncle. He's got a tandem axle utility trailer that has electric brakes. I borrowed it one day and noticed the the harness had dragged the ground at some point and ripped through a few wires on the 7 pin. I fixed them up for him and let him know.

Turns out he just uses a 4 pin adapter with it and his Avalanche.

Ohh well, brakes worked great for me after I fixed them.

 

[mtbikernate]

I learned recently that in a bunch of states, it's not legal to tow a trailer equipped with brakes that are nonfunctional (including not having a properly set up brake controller). that's not the case everywhere.

obv this isn't something that a cop is going to stop you over. but if you wreck while towing, it'll get tacked on.

 

[Grumpaw]

Hooked up and towed the rig to Wilmington, NC for 5 days. Been 35 years since last time we were here. Just touring and spending Sunday at Battleship North Carolina Memorial.
360 miles in 90 degree temps.....60-65 mph. Trans temp averaged 200-210 and coolant between 198-210 depending on terrain. MPG was 10-11 mpg.....don't concern myself with that, but it is there in front of me on the Scan Gauge.

 

[Chris M]

Hooked up and towed the rig to Wilmington, NC for 5 days. Been 35 years since last time we were here. Just touring and spending Sunday at Battleship North Carolina Memorial.
360 miles in 90 degree temps.....60-65 mph. Trans temp averaged 200-210 and coolant between 198-210 depending on terrain. MPG was 10-11 mpg.....don't concern myself with that, but it is there in front of me on the Scan Gauge.

I went to the USS NC battleship when I was very young. It was very impressive to me then, Bd I'd like to go back some day now that I can better appreciate it.

Take pics and share if you go...

 

[Grumpaw]

Here's the Kingfisher float plane on rear fantail, rear 16 inch turret and two forward 16 inch turrets.
Each single barrel weighs around 96 tons, and each turret weighs around 1700 tons....about what a small WWll destroyer escort weighed. Fired different shells that weighed from 1700 lbs to 2200 lbs up to over 20 miles.

 

[Grumpaw]

Fun facts....
No Carolina carried 2,000,000 gallons of fuel oil or 8,000 tons (around 8 lbs per gallon).
At average speed, 20 knots, she used 166 gallons to go one mile, approx one gallon for each 32 feet.
Picture shows the armor belt/torpedo belt which would have been below the water when she was loaded....you see how high the ship is riding as it's carrying no supplies
Empty displacement was 35,000 tons, loaded out for a wartime patrol, 46,000 tons, so you can see how much that load of fuel contributed to the loaded weight, rest was ammo load out, food, water Some of the ship advisers said she regularly was loaded out even more, carrying extra ammo.

 

[Chris M]

Fun facts....
No Carolina carried 2,000,000 gallons of fuel oil or 8,000 tons (around 8 lbs per gallon).
At average speed, 20 knots, she used 166 gallons to go one mile, approx one gallon for each 32 feet.
Picture shows the armor belt/torpedo belt which would have been below the water when she was loaded....you see how high the ship is riding as it's carrying no supplies
Empty displacement was 35,000 tons, loaded out for a wartime patrol, 46,000 tons, so you can see how much that load of fuel contributed to the loaded weight, rest was ammo load out, food, water Some of the ship advisers said she regularly was loaded out even more, carrying extra ammo.

She's been repainted since I saw her way back when. Was just battleship gray at the time.
My parents bought me a model of her to put together when I got home. Good times.

 

[Grumpaw]

She's been repainted since I saw her way back when. Was just battleship gray at the time.
My parents bought me a model of her to put together when I got home. Good times.

She's showing her age....lots of places where rust has eaten thru some of the thinner metal on the outside decks and painted over. Still, it's 84 years since she first hit water, so can't fault some minor problems here and there.
Been on several other battleships from WWll and they all show some ware n tare, but all being in there 80's and one over 100 years old, it's great their still open for viewing.

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