Fuel in oil

[N. J. Jim]

I have been wanting to know this also. But I am not sure if this makes sense.

• 350 ml is 1.49 cups
• 6.2 quarts is 24.8 cups
• 1.49/24.8 ==> 6% fuel dilution.

My Blackstone reports indicated 3.3% and 3.8% fuel dilution and my oil level was at the top hole.

I put in this thread a long time ago I was at the top hole from the upper hash mark, and Blackstone told me I had 1% fuel dilution. I said it didn't add up and nobody on this thread paid any attention to what I said. Blackstone told me it was on account of the low mileage on the oil when I sent in the sample. What the hell has that have to do with the rise in level, if it wasn't fuel what was it condensation and if so why wasn't that stated in my report!

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[Deathrider]

I put in this thread a long time ago I was at the top hole from the upper hash mark, and Blackstone told me I had 1% fuel dilution. I said it didn't add up and nobody on this thread paid any attention to what I said. Blackstone told me it was on account of the low mileage on the oil when I sent in the sample. What the hell has that have to do with the rise in level, if it wasn't fuel what was it condensation and if so why wasn't that stated in my report!

Well I paid attention to you if that makes you feel better

 

[N. J. Jim]

Well I paid attention to you if that makes you feel better

Yeah I was about ready to start f_____ cryin ! Now I feel fantastic, your one hell of a guy!! LOL

 

[Metalshift]

Metalshift, how long did you wait between each of your measurements when you added the small increments of oil after the initial fill? It takes quite a while for the oil to work its way down into the oil pan.

I waited about 1 hour for the first 325ml and about 20 minutes for the next 325ml.
It is a misconception that the oil takes a while to drain down to the pan. Engines are designed with adequate drain galleries to return oil back to the pan as quick as possible. It drains as fast as it pours.

 

[Samsquanch]

Why does everyone use blackstone? There has to be other oil analysis labs that can be used to run the same tests. I would think sending the same sample from the same oil change out to lab A and B would tell the story.

 

[Texasota]

I put in this thread a long time ago I was at the top hole from the upper hash mark, and Blackstone told me I had 1% fuel dilution. I said it didn't add up and nobody on this thread paid any attention to what I said. Blackstone told me it was on account of the low mileage on the oil when I sent in the sample. What the hell has that have to do with the rise in level, if it wasn't fuel what was it condensation and if so why wasn't that stated in my report!

If the 1% fuel dilution is accurate and the level on your dipstick rose from the hash mark to the top hole, then the oil had to have been diluted with something else. Water/condensation or a coolant leak seem like the only two possibilities. You and your dealer would have known if it was coolant.

Water will collect at the bottom of your oil pan (water is denser than motor oil). Blackstone says to collect an oil sample at midstream (not the first part of the stream) and that is likely to avoid contaminating the sample with water.

Jim, maybe your elevated oil level was water at the bottom of the oil pan? Was it winter time when this sample was taken?

 

[N. J. Jim]

If the 1% fuel dilution is accurate and the level on your dipstick rose from the hash mark to the top hole, then the oil had to have been diluted with something else. Water/condensation or a coolant leak seem like the only two possibilities. You and your dealer would have known if it was coolant.

Water will collect at the bottom of your oil pan (water is denser than motor oil). Blackstone says to collect an oil sample at midstream (not the first part of the stream) and that is likely to avoid contaminating the sample with water.

Jim, maybe your elevated oil level was water at the bottom of the oil pan? Was it winter time when this sample was taken?

Still warm near the end of summer. I'm gonna take another sample perrty soon and send it off. There will be about 3 thousand miles on the oil when I send it!

 

[quirkybar8]

Why does everyone use blackstone? There has to be other oil analysis labs that can be used to run the same tests. I would think sending the same sample from the same oil change out to lab A and B would tell the story.

https://www.oaitesting.com/index.aspx, which is the Amsoil kit lab. https://polarislabs.com/testing/oil-analysis/ appears to be the actual lab behind it.

I put in this thread a long time ago I was at the top hole from the upper hash mark, and Blackstone told me I had 1% fuel dilution. I said it didn't add up and nobody on this thread paid any attention to what I said. Blackstone told me it was on account of the low mileage on the oil when I sent in the sample. What the hell has that have to do with the rise in level, if it wasn't fuel what was it condensation and if so why wasn't that stated in my report!

My approach from the beginning has been that I don't care what it smells like or what lab results say, because I've seen multiple references to Ford not considering those as reasons to address the problem. I stick with the fact that it starts below the max hole and goes over it, all by its lonesome. And that's been sufficient for my dealer to shoot trouble and repair based on the tech's diagnosis. Shame it keeps coming back, although at least the severity doesn't approach what some have dealt with. I'll keep wishing in one hand that they'll finally get sufficient data to actually own up and offer a solution.

 

[N. J. Jim]

https://www.oaitesting.com/index.aspx, which is the Amsoil kit lab. https://polarislabs.com/testing/oil-analysis/ appears to be the actual lab behind it.

My approach from the beginning has been that I don't care what it smells like or what lab results say, because I've seen multiple references to Ford not considering those as reasons to address the problem. I stick with the fact that it starts below the max hole and goes over it, all by its lonesome. And that's been sufficient for my dealer to shoot trouble and repair based on the tech's diagnosis. Shame it keeps coming back, although at least the severity doesn't approach what some have dealt with. I'll keep wishing in one hand that they'll finally get sufficient data to actually own up and offer a solution.

You hit it on the head your absolutely right. That's the best way to look at this damn mess! Seams like I've been doing better with the 5/40. I think Blackstone is taking an educated guess on the level of fuel dilution!

 

[Trigganometry]

You hit it on the head your absolutely right. That's the best way to look at this damn mess! Seams like I've been doing better with the 5/40. I think Blackstone is taking an educated guess on the level of fuel dilution!

Coming from a world of engineering I can state this with a pretty high level of confidence. First, wherever they are located they have to be registered and inspected by States weights and measures dept. That then allows them to operate with calibrated equipment that would need additional certification/calibration after an certain amount of time. That’s all on public record BTW.

They also provide a report of the test analysis. This report is a certification and logged as such. They have to retain these reports for review if requested and also prove equipment used was certified at the time of test.

So, after investing all this time, effort and cost into providing “an educated guess” what you have stated is easily dismissed.

All you got to do is challenge them on their findings and watch what happens. Let us know how that goes!

 

[N. J. Jim]

Coming from a world of engineering I can state this with a pretty high level of confidence. First, wherever they are located they have to be registered and inspected by States weights and measures dept. That then allows them to operate with calibrated equipment that would need additional certification/calibration after an certain amount of time. That’s all on public record BTW.

They also provide a report of the test analysis. This report is a certification and logged as such. They have to retain these reports for review if requested and also prove equipment used was certified at the time of test.

So, after investing all this time, effort and cost into providing “an educated guess” what you have stated is easily dismissed.

All you got to do is challenge them on their findings and watch what happens. Let us know how that goes!

Well something else is going on here then contributing to the rising oil levels. It just doesn't add up with the amount of rise in level alot of us are experiencing. I'm gonna send in another sample to Blackstone and see what the analysis is this time!

 

[MotoWojo]

Coming from a world of engineering I can state this with a pretty high level of confidence. First, wherever they are located they have to be registered and inspected by States weights and measures dept. That then allows them to operate with calibrated equipment that would need additional certification/calibration after an certain amount of time. That’s all on public record BTW.

They also provide a report of the test analysis. This report is a certification and logged as such. They have to retain these reports for review if requested and also prove equipment used was certified at the time of test.

So, after investing all this time, effort and cost into providing “an educated guess” what you have stated is easily dismissed.

All you got to do is challenge them on their findings and watch what happens. Let us know how that goes!

From what I have found online, Blackstone uses "open cup" flashpoint testing, ASTM D92 - 18, for determining fuel dilution. It seems to be widely agreed upon, that this method is not the most accurate and is regarded as a qualitative test vs quantitative test (pass/fail vs how much). Gas chromatography is regarded as a much more accurate testing method. Search around online, lots of folks have posted results comparing both methods. For fuel dilution issues, I do not believe Blackstone is the proper testing house.

 

[GregsFX2Ranger]

This website needs a built-in conversion calculator! LOL

 

[quirkybar8]

From what I have found online, Blackstone uses "open cup" flashpoint testing, ASTM D92 - 18, for determining fuel dilution. It seems to be widely agreed upon, that this method is not the most accurate and is regarded as a qualitative test vs quantitative test (pass/fail vs how much). Gas chromatography is regarded as a much more accurate testing method. Search around online, lots of folks have posted results comparing both methods. For fuel dilution issues, I do not believe Blackstone is the proper testing house.

Interesting take at https://polarislabs.com/how-gasoline-engine-technology-affects-fuel-dilution/. I highlighted the part that seems to go against the idea that using higher viscosity oil helps mitigate dilution damage. Seems counterintuitive, and likely to be poo poo'd by some.

How much is acceptable?

While OEMs do not publish acceptable numbers, the common range used by most is that 3 - 7% can be acceptable as long as there is not a noticeable increase in wear or drop in lubricant viscosity. Most OEMs are using low viscosity oils that tend to be more tolerant of higher amounts of fuel.

Our laboratory will report fuel dilution by two methods. The first method will be an estimate based on the viscosity result. If the viscosity has not dropped further than one centistoke from the midpoint of the SAE grade identified for the sample, an estimate of <1% fuel will be reported. However, if the viscosity has dropped further than one centistoke, the sample is then tested for fuel dilution using Gas Chromatography (GC) method ASTM D7593 for an exact percentage of fuel. The unleaded gasoline fuel dilution method by GC is calibrated up to 5%. If the GC registers a result higher than 5%, a result of >5% will be reported. Exact percentages above 5% cannot be reported due to the calibration limits.

 

[N. J. Jim]

Interesting take from Polaris Labs (https://polarislabs.com/how-gasoline-engine-technology-affects-fuel-dilution/). I highlighted the part that seems to go against the idea that using higher viscosity oil helps mitigate dilution damage. Seems counterintuitive, and likely to be poo poo'd by some.

How much is acceptable?

While OEMs do not publish acceptable numbers, the common range used by most is that 3 - 7% can be acceptable as long as there is not a noticeable increase in wear or drop in lubricant viscosity. Most OEMs are using low viscosity oils that tend to be more tolerant of higher amounts of fuel.

Our laboratory will report fuel dilution by two methods. The first method will be an estimate based on the viscosity result. If the viscosity has not dropped further than one centistoke from the midpoint of the SAE grade identified for the sample, an estimate of <1% fuel will be reported. However, if the viscosity has dropped further than one centistoke, the sample is then tested for fuel dilution using Gas Chromatography (GC) method ASTM D7593 for an exact percentage of fuel. The unleaded gasoline fuel dilution method by GC is calibrated up to 5%. If the GC registers a result higher than 5%, a result of >5% will be reported. Exact percentages above 5% cannot be reported due to the calibration limits.

I'll let you know how much poo poo it is using higher viscosity oil when I send my 5/40 sample off at 3000 miles to Blackstone!

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