Fuel in oil

[2ford]

I agree with everything your saying... except... "I never had fuel dilution".. every internal combustion gasoline motor experiences it on some level.. It just normally not excessive, but it is always there.

Any fuel in the crankcase causes fuel dilution. This happens especially when the motor is cold. Once the motors comes up to temperature then the fuel, and any condensation, turns to vapors and are typically evacuated from the crankcase by the PCV system, if your vehicle has one.

My point is.. fuel dilution happens, it in itself is nothing new. The issue the folks are having is something other than the normal blow by.

Ford is working their way through the issue, and it appears they are finding it is high pressure fuel pump or injector related.... not blow by related.

As I said Ford will get this sorted out. It's the price you pay for buying new(ish) technology.

I agree any fuel in the oil causes dilution and yes to some extent some fuel may make it's way into the crankcase for a variety of reasons and a properly running engine will absorb that minuscule amount of fuel as mentioned but like I said if there is no increase in crank case oil level there is no fuel in the oil. If raw fuel is getting in the crankcase past the rings during the combustion process your engine has issues. I've never suspected blow by as the problem on this engine

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[HenryMac]

I agree any fuel in the oil causes dilution and yes to some extent some fuel may make it's way into the crankcase for a variety of reasons and a properly running engine will absorb that minuscule amount of fuel as mentioned but like I said if there is no increase in crank case oil level there is no fuel in the oil. If raw fuel is getting in the crankcase past the rings during the combustion process your engine has issues. I've never suspected blow by as the problem on this engine

Sorry, but what you are saying is just flat out wrong. The only gasoline internal combustion engines that have zero fuel dilution are the ones that have never been run.

Every Blackstone analysis show fuel dilution... and there is always a value there and it's never 0... unless the engine has never been run.

 

[N. J. Jim]

Then why does every Blackstone analysis show fuel dilution... and there is always a value there and it's never 0?

I'd like to make a statement here, my oil level rose up to the twist in the stick in just 60 miles after an oil change. Now I am not the only one with a severe problem here. I had the HPFP changed 550 miles ago, since then the oil has risen to just below the top hole, but has stopped at that level. Now the jury is still out in my case but I'm hoping it straightens out. If not maybe injectors next if that doesn't do it could be a huge problem!

 

[MotoWojo]

I'd like to make a statement here, my oil level rose up to the twist in the stick in just 60 miles after an oil change. Now I am not the only one with a severe problem here. I had the HPFP changed 550 miles ago, since then the oil has risen to just below the top hole, but has stopped at that level. Now the jury is still out in my case but I'm hoping it straightens out. If not maybe injectors next if that doesn't do it could be a huge problem!

Interesting, I too had the HPFP replaced and they also replaced the injectors at the same time. I have just under 300 miles on since then and the oil level has also risen to just under the top hole. From where it started when I got the truck back, that is only about a 1/4" rise. Before the service it would have easily been twice that or more in 300 miles. I am hoping it stops where it is. I am keeping an eye on it hoping it is not going to progress further.

 

[jsphlynch]

If raw fuel is getting in the crankcase past the rings during the combustion process your engine has issues.

This is like saying "if your engine heats up, it has issues." Obviously, engines heat up to some extent when they run. It can't be eliminated, and all the engineering of the engines take that heat into account to minimize that heat accumulation where possible, and deal with the effects of the heat that can't be eliminated (to the extent that they only run properly once they have heated up!). However, there are problems that cause engines to get too hot, so you need to discern between "hot" and "too hot."

Raw fuel gets past the rings; it can't be eliminated, just dealt with. It's worse with direct injection. It's even worse with turbos. This isn't my opinion; it's been documented in numerous papers in SAE and other journals. The engineering of engines takes this blow-by into account, minimizing it where possible, and dealing with the effects where necessary. So the question becomes, how much dilution is to be expected, and how much indicates an actual problem? I think we can all agree that rising to the twist in 60 miles definitely indicates a problem. But what is that limit between "normal" and "too much"? Is 6% too much? Is anything above the Blackstone limit of 2% too much? Is any discernible rise too much?

 

[jsphlynch]

Sorry, but what you are saying is just flat out wrong. The only gasoline internal combustion engines that have zero fuel dilution are the ones that have never been run.

Every Blackstone analysis show fuel dilution... and there is always a value there and it's never 0... unless the engine has never been run.

Interesting that they note the viscosity is in the 5w/20 range. I wonder if that's just from degradation of the oil, or if the factory fill is a little thinner than 5w/30.

 

[2ford]

This is like saying "if your engine heats up, it has issues." Obviously, engines heat up to some extent when they run. It can't be eliminated, and all the engineering of the engines take that heat into account to minimize that heat accumulation where possible, and deal with the effects of the heat that can't be eliminated (to the extent that they only run properly once they have heated up!). However, there are problems that cause engines to get too hot, so you need to discern between "hot" and "too hot."

Raw fuel gets past the rings; it can't be eliminated, just dealt with. It's worse with direct injection. It's even worse with turbos. This isn't my opinion; it's been documented in numerous papers in SAE and other journals. The engineering of engines takes this blow-by into account, minimizing it where possible, and dealing with the effects where necessary. So the question becomes, how much dilution is to be expected, and how much indicates an actual problem? I think we can all agree that rising to the twist in 60 miles definitely indicates a problem. But what is that limit between "normal" and "too much"? Is 6% too much? Is anything above the Blackstone limit of 2% too much? Is any discernible rise too much?

Any increase in crankcase level from raw fuel contamination is too much.

 

[2ford]

Sorry, but what you are saying is just flat out wrong. The only gasoline internal combustion engines that have zero fuel dilution are the ones that have never been run.

Every Blackstone analysis show fuel dilution... and there is always a value there and it's never 0... unless the engine has never been run.

You are missing my point I'm talking about raw fuel contamination that increases the crankcase level. I agree that blow by contaniments get trapped in the oil hence the need to change oil periodically

 

[jsphlynch]

Any increase in crankcase level from raw fuel contamination is too much.

Provide a reference, please.

 

[aeroshots]

My truck has done this since day one. I have a huge heated garage I park the truck in. I spend a lot of time working on various projects in the garage and every now and then I will here the fuel pump prime even though my key fob is in the house and I am not on the app or anything. I think it's probably normal as I did not start having problems until recently. I do have a lot of fuel contamination in my oil, but that only started in the past few thousand miles and I am over 15,000 miles on the truck. The oil sample the dealer sent in for testing indicated 12% fuel in my oil and that was at 498 miles after the oil change and the oil level was just past the max mark on the dipstick. When I first noticed the oil level was very high, it was up into the twist part of the dipstick, I changed the oil then, which was about only 3,000 miles old, and I drained out nearly 7.8 qts! Had to be well over 20% dilution. It has been to the dealer several times and is going back tomorrow and they are giving me a loaner. Ford is having them do a series of checks, compression, injectors, etc. From others on this board, I suspect it will probably end up being HPFP? Just hope the engine isn't toast, or worse yet, gives out after the powertrain warranty expires.

Are ya'll opening the driver door when you then hear the fuel pump prime?

 

[2ford]

Interesting that they note the viscosity is in the 5w/20 range. I wonder if that's just from degradation of the oil, or if the factory fill is a little thinner than 5w/30.

Makes me wonder to they say no fuel dilution but show .5% in the chart. I wouldn't think that amount would change the viscosity.

 

[2ford]

Provide a reference, please.

Increased crankcase level above the max level, fuel dilution changes the oil viscosity are a couple that come to mind.

 

[MotoWojo]

Are ya'll opening the driver door when you then hear the fuel pump prime?

Yup, I hear it prime when I open the door first thing in the morning.

 

[MotoWojo]

Makes me wonder to they say no fuel dilution but show .5% in the chart. I wouldn't think that amount would change the viscosity.

The first time I noticed increased crank case levels, I had over 13,000 miles on the truck. At that time, when I checked the oil and it was up to the twist, I had a little over 3000 miles since the last oil change, I changed it immediately and after about 500 miles it was about an 1/8in over the max mark and I took to the dealer. They took an oil sample and sent it out for testing and it came back at 12% fuel dilution. I wonder how high the dilution was when it was up to the twist? At that time, the service tech told me that he wouldn't be worried if it was that high at a regular oil change interval, but at 500 miles, he agreed that something wasn't right. My last F150 lasted me 12 years, I am starting to think that will not be possible for this truck.

 

[jsphlynch]

Makes me wonder to they say no fuel dilution but show .5% in the chart. I wouldn't think that amount would change the viscosity.

Nice job on that quick edit. Would have been embarassing if you had publicly equated <0.5% dilution with a quart of fuel.

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