SHROCKWORKS out of business?

[DukeCanBuildit]

This never made any sense to me.

All debts should be compiled and then they start with with the smallest debt. If its $20, then $20 is set aside for all debtors. Once the $20 debtor is settled he is scratched off the list. The next is $60 owed to a single debtor, then $40 (so everyone has $60 now) is then given too all debtors. So forth and so forth in a domino effect until the funds dry up. That way everyone is attempted to be made whole evenly.

There is absolutely no reason corporations should take priority over individuals, zero. Again, like another thread from yesterday, the civil system is just as borked as the criminal one.

That all makes sense and sounds proper Jack - why should the folks least likely to be able to fight get screwed? Let the bigger fish that can afford to absorb it take the hit. I get it.

Unfortunately, business loan and operating line of credit agreements put the creditors in first position. They even register chattels to insure their position in line. They “hold paper”. I know - I was a Business Banking Account Manager at Canada’s largest bank. They help make the rules and have all the players and lobbyists in place to keep things that way. Sucks to be the smaller fish.

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[rooster]

Sounds like OA walks the walk with Old School Customer Service
About Us (offroadalliance.com)

Much respect, I think I'll buy something.

 

[OFC Ranger]

That all makes sense and sounds proper Jack - why should the folks least likely to be able to fight get screwed? Let the bigger fish that can afford to absorb it take the hit. I get it.

Unfortunately, business loan and operating line of credit agreements put the creditors in first position. They even register chattels to insure their position in line. They “hold paper”. I know - I was a Business Banking Account Manager at Canada’s largest bank. They help make the rules and have all the players and lobbyists in place to keep things that way. Sucks to be the smaller fish.

I guess I don't understand how this is legal, or rather why the court legally honors that setup. How can one entity have the legal right to sign away the rights of another entity not even involved in the overall investment picture or contract?

Sorry Bob, I have to pay Fred his $20 first because Fred's paperwork I signed says I have too.

A proper functioning court system should see that and laugh, invalidate it, and then proceed in a fair and ethical manner.

Bankruptcy and reparations are a strictly legal court system, paperwork from outside this scope should hold zero weight. It is the court's job to fairly and evenly handle the situation brought before them for ALL involved parties.

Yea I know, shit in one hand and wish in the other and see which fills up first.

 

[VAMike]

This never made any sense to me.

All debts should be compiled and then they start with with the smallest debt. If its $20, then $20 is set aside for all debtors. Once the $20 debtor is settled he is scratched off the list. The next is $60 owed to a single debtor, then $40 (so everyone has $60 now) is then given too all debtors. So forth and so forth in a domino effect until the funds dry up. That way everyone is attempted to be made whole evenly.

There is absolutely no reason corporations should take priority over individuals, zero. Again, like another thread from yesterday, the civil system is just as borked as the criminal one.

In practical terms, you'd end up blowing through more money in the overhead of managing a bunch of tiny $20 credits that nobody really cares about than you would actually pay out. Sounds great, but the net effect is to just waste time & money and not make anyone happy.

 

[Msfitoy]

No bankruptcy announcement? Just folded and left the store eh?

 

[Joeiconic]

Usually when a bank loans money they enter into an agreement with the borrower that says they have first priority (or second, or third, etc.) of recovery in the event of bankruptcy or liquidation. If there are multiple lenders there is an agreed to pecking order built in the loan agreements. The bankruptcy trustee and court simply honors those agreements. We‘re all sympathetic to the little guy, but its only fair, IMO, that the person or entity that took the biggest financial risk in the failed business should recover first. And no creditor ever recovers 100% in a bankruptcy anyway, because theres never enough money to go around, hence the bankruptcy.

 

[OFC Ranger]

In practical terms, you'd end up blowing through more money in the overhead of managing a bunch of tiny $20 credits that nobody really cares about than you would actually pay out. Sounds great, but the net effect is to just waste time & money and not make anyone happy.

My domino and divide just used random numbers. Any size number can be applied. Don't take it as literal.

 

[OFC Ranger]

Usually when a bank loans money they enter into an agreement with the borrower that says they have first priority (or second, or third, etc.) of recovery in the event of bankruptcy or liquidation. If there are multiple lenders there is an agreed to pecking order built in the loan agreements. The bankruptcy trustee and court simply honors those agreements. We‘re all sympathetic to the little guy, but its only fair, IMO, that the person or entity that took the biggest financial risk in the failed business should recover first. And no creditor ever recovers 100% in a bankruptcy anyway, because theres never enough money to go around, hence the bankruptcy.

Bullshit. Ain't nothing "right" about it.

The customers never had a chance to enter this contract which is my entire point. Why are they cannon fodder?

Why is my money less important? Because some other private entity says so? A civil contract is being enforced on a party that had no idea it existed nor given a chance to accept or deny the terms of it when entering the scenario.

Total and utter bullshit.

 

[Joeiconic]

Customers can file as creditors in the bankruptcy and get pennies on the dollar just like everyone else. Nobody wins in a bankruptcy.

 

[KTM0620]

Got this letter in the mail today, looks like they haven’t been paying bills for a while. Sliders got delivered October 20. Anyone else received a letter like this ? Is this something I can really be held liable for? I have an invoice showing I pre paid shipping!

 

[TXRangerTim]

Shipping was most likely calculated in your final price that you paid. Contact them and advise them to cease or any further action will result in your attorney being your point of contact. They can pound sand.

 

[Friday yet?]

Shipping was most likely calculated in your final price that you paid. Contact them and advise them to cease or any further action will result in your attorney being your point of contact. They can pound sand.

THIS

 

[jsphlynch]

Got this letter in the mail today, looks like they haven’t been paying bills for a while. Sliders got delivered October 20. Anyone else received a letter like this ? Is this something I can really be held liable for? I have an invoice showing I pre paid shipping!

I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so feel free to treat what follows as the hairbrained rambling of an internet rando that it is.

I'm guessing they're grasping at straws. Shrockworks undoubtedly used the same shipper repeatedly, and (as you discovered) hasn't paid said shipper in months. That freight company is now sitting on 5-figures worth of unpaid invoices, and that's a tough hit to take no matter who you are. So they sent out these scary-sounding letters hoping that the recipients say "gosh, I didn't realize I was liable for this; I better hurry up and pay it!" Will they follow up on it? Who knows.

It seems to me that your potential liability for the charge is going to depend on any contracts you entered into with them. I'm going to guess that you signed something to acknowledge acceptance of the delivery. I've signed quite a number of those things over the years, and I'll admit I've never read one in detail, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of the standard clauses in them is something along the lines of accepting liability for the charges associated with the delivery.

What I would do is contact the freight company and explain that you have no record of any contract with them, and ask them to forward you any such contract or agreement signed by you that they may have. If they have nothing, I don't see how you could be liable for the charge. If it turns out that they do indeed have a signed paper from delivery in which you agreed to accept responsibility for the charges, send them a copy of the invoice from Shrockworks showing that they accepted payment and thus responsibility for freight charges. I wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't help you, however, since they will likely respond that any agreement and payment between you and Shrockworks is between the two of you, and is separate from liabilities between you and the freight company.

If they send the bill to collections, dispute the charge immediately. You may be able to get them to drop it if they fail to prove it's a valid debt (and do not accept the mere existence of a bill as proof of debt...anybody with access to a computer can create a bill but that doesn't make a bill valid).

Like I said, I'm just an internet rando, not a lawyer, so if anything I wrote is contradicted by somebody more credentialed than me (which is pretty much everybody), trust them over me.

 

[AzScorpion]

I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so feel free to treat what follows as the hairbrained rambling of an internet rando that it is.

I'm guessing they're grasping at straws. Shrockworks undoubtedly used the same shipper repeatedly, and (as you discovered) hasn't paid said shipper in months. That freight company is now sitting on 5-figures worth of unpaid invoices, and that's a tough hit to take no matter who you are. So they sent out these scary-sounding letters hoping that the recipients say "gosh, I didn't realize I was liable for this; I better hurry up and pay it!" Will they follow up on it? Who knows.

It seems to me that your potential liability for the charge is going to depend on any contracts you entered into with them. I'm going to guess that you signed something to acknowledge acceptance of the delivery. I've signed quite a number of those things over the years, and I'll admit I've never read one in detail, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of the standard clauses in them is something along the lines of accepting liability for the charges associated with the delivery.

What I would do is contact the freight company and explain that you have no record of any contract with them, and ask them to forward you any such contract or agreement signed by you that they may have. If they have nothing, I don't see how you could be liable for the charge. If it turns out that they do indeed have a signed paper from delivery in which you agreed to accept responsibility for the charges, send them a copy of the invoice from Shrockworks showing that they accepted payment and thus responsibility for freight charges. I wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't help you, however, since they will likely respond that any agreement and payment between you and Shrockworks is between the two of you, and is separate from liabilities between you and the freight company.

If they send the bill to collections, dispute the charge immediately. You may be able to get them to drop it if they fail to prove it's a valid debt (and do not accept the mere existence of a bill as proof of debt...anybody with access to a computer can create a bill but that doesn't make a bill valid).

Like I said, I'm just an internet rando, not a lawyer, so if anything I wrote is contradicted by somebody more credentialed than me (which is pretty much everybody), trust them over me.

I would think this is correct, it sounds like a scare tactic. He (and everyone else) entered a contract with Shrockworks not the shipping company. On the original invoice it should state what shipping is whether a fee or free shipping and that's now on Shrockworks to fulfill with the shipper.

I'm guilty of not reading the fine print too. But I would ASSume signing for them was just an acknowledgement of delivery and not holding you legal responsible for the shipping fees. But like you I'm no lawyer but it seems highly unlikely he'll have to pay for shipping a second time.

 

[jsphlynch]

Here's what appears to be a detailed, well-referenced, semi-technical article on the topic written by actual lawyers. I haven't read it, but I'm guessing it provides better info than anybody will provide on a pickup forum.
https://www.scopelitis.com/scopelitis/assets/dynapsis/Carrier Must Get PaidFact or Fiction Tauscher.pdf

EDIT to add: skimmed it, and the overall answer for who is liable for the charges seems to be: it's complicated. However, the cited case law seems to establish that the bill of lading is really important even though the person receiving the shipment wasn't involved at all in completing it. If Shrockworks selected "prepaid," I think you should be in pretty good shape.

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