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Floyd

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$200 worth of convenience.
No paint scratches while poking around in the dark finding the lock.

Works for me.
Convenience , true! $10 worth for $200 plus to replace.
Done equally well with a $10 key fob which you can program yourself.
Its a moot point anyway, we all can only buy what is offered.
You are right though, many people today will pay thousands of dollars for fifty bucks worth of electronics which are really cool and a lot of fun.
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Trigganometry

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Nothing a brick of C4 can’t fix! Perps break into truck, go to start, doors lock then heads up starts, message reads, “Today’s you lucky day dirtbags. Countdown begins, 4,3,2”, oops road kill…
 

gttafoya

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The Key fob most likely is not sending a constant signal. The fob is only sending a signal on a key press or when you touch the door handle to lock or unlock. the fob is listening for the handle touch, but not sending signals.
So, the chance of someone driving by your house and just logging codes on their computer are very slim in that they would have to catch you locking/unlocking your doors or starting the truck using the fob.

if anything, it would be a targeted attack to a individual or a specific vehicle. if they are trying for a location such as an apartment building, then it would be easier to listen for a specific make of car to reduce the noise of all the other vehicles that may be there and it would be easier to plant the device to be able to log the data without being suspicious.


here is some videos doing these type of attacks on a 2019 Ford.
https://www.rtl-sdr.com/hak5-hacking-ford-key-fobs-with-a-hackrf-and-portapack/

BTW. I knew about this before I got my Lariat. And I am still not worried about it.
 

AzScorpion

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So if you guys are so worried about this, what are you all doing about your RFID credit cards? :eek:

You can choose to live paranoid, or you can just choose to live.
Exactly! I have full replacement value on both my truck and my house. If something happens it happens but at least I'm covered, it'll just be an inconvenience. I've had my CC ID stolen a few times and both times I received instant alerts from Capital One asking me to confirm the purchases. They froze my card, credited me back for the fraudulent purchases and overnighted me a new card.

Now if someone steals my damper then all bets are off. Maybe I should wrap in in tinfoil? ?

I might be safer walking around like this. ?


Tin-Foil-Hat.webp
 


Apples

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I know a bit more about this issue than most....

In order to pick up the FOB's signal, they have to broadcast its 128 bit code. Explain to me, how slow you'd have to drive, to decode every possible 128 bit code, and expect an answer back?

It reminds me of all of the YouTube ads, which always start out like this.... This revolutionary device (whatever the name) is setting the world on fire...." Yeah, right!
 

ROBERTECOX

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If I was going to all the trouble to get the equipment required and then start stalking/driving by to get the key/fob info and steal a vehicle it wouldn't be a 40k Ranger...well maybe MSFITOY's Ranger.?
 

Tom_C

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Hm. Well, after watching the vid and reading all the comments, I guess I'm not going henny penny on this one, but I might still buy a couple bags to keep my fobs in while they are in the house. I'm not going to carry one with me. And, my cars are locked in a detached garage, so that's another layer of protection.

No need to be too paranoid, but also no need to not take minimal precautions. I have good insurance, but I also want the truck I bought and not have to go shopping for an exact replacement.
 

TechnicallyReal

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The Key fob most likely is not sending a constant signal. The fob is only sending a signal on a key press or when you touch the door handle to lock or unlock. the fob is listening for the handle touch, but not sending signals.
The last part doesn't make sense to me. How would touching the door handle trigger the fob to send a signal? The door handle is idle until touched, then it checks to see if the FOB's signal is in proximity, and then either unlocks or doesn't. At very least the radio in the door handle would need to wake the FOB with one signal so that the FOB could send another back.

I know a bit more about this issue than most....

In order to pick up the FOB's signal, they have to broadcast its 128 bit code. Explain to me, how slow you'd have to drive, to decode every possible 128 bit code, and expect an answer back?
I personally have no idea but wanted to throw it out there that 128bit is nothing. 1024bit is considered insecure on the internet, so 2048 is the gold standard now. It's a race against time in any case. The equipment used will keep evolving, getting faster and faster at trying or breaking codes.

I may sound like I am siding with the paranoid here, but I'm just playing devil's advocate. Despite any points I may bring up, I don't really think there's much to worry about. As mentioned, I might get a faraday box for in the house, because why not. The real protection comes in the form of the low odds of actually being targeted and insurance in case it does happen. Between myself and my family, we've had proximity keys for probably a decade now without issue.
 

DeathRanger

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These "hackers" can also mess with your car while driving. This article is old, but the hackable tech is even older and still in use and now this old tech connects to a cell signal in the car allowing remote access.

https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/

Everything is hackable. Nothing is safe. If someone wants to target you, there's very little you can do.

You can put your fob in 2-3 small foiled lines potato chip bags and it's pretty effective at blocking the signals, if you want to be cheap.
 

VAMike

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I personally have no idea but wanted to throw it out there that 128bit is nothing. 1024bit is considered insecure on the internet, so 2048 is the gold standard now.
That really depends on what the "bit" is measuring. Different encryption algorithms have keys with different properties, and a 128 bit symmetric key is considered roughly equivalent to a 3072 bit factorization key, a 256 bit elliptic curve key, etc.
 

r1ch999999

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Right about now this is what you all sound like:
 

Mastodon

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The last part doesn't make sense to me. How would touching the door handle trigger the fob to send a signal? The door handle is idle until touched, then it checks to see if the FOB's signal is in proximity, and then either unlocks or doesn't. At very least the radio in the door handle would need to wake the FOB with one signal so that the FOB could send another back.
The rest of that paragraph says exactly that. The fob isn't sending out a constant signal (otherwise battery life would be terrible.) It's only responding to the interrogation signal sent by the vehicle.

I personally have no idea but wanted to throw it out there that 128bit is nothing. 1024bit is considered insecure on the internet, so 2048 is the gold standard now. It's a race against time in any case. The equipment used will keep evolving, getting faster and faster at trying or breaking codes.
The insecurity isn't related to the length of the key, but of the type of encryption used for the key. Key meaning cipher, not keyfob. 1024bit RSA has been broken, but 128bit AES hasn't. RC4 and DES types of encryption are also insecure. This means that you don't have to cycle through every possible option before getting the right code. Instead, you just decrypt the original message.

For general cryptography, the math says the number of possible keys with 128 bits is 2 raised to the power of 128, or 3.4x10^38, or 340 undecillion. Assuming no information on the nature of the key is available, a code-breaking attempt would require testing each possible key until one was found that worked.

Assuming that enough computing power was massed to test 1 trillion keys per second, testing all possible keys would take 10.79 quintillion years. This is about 785 million times the age of the visible universe (13.75 billion years). On the other hand, the attacker might get lucky in the first 10 minutes.

Most SSL certificates for websites use 128bit or 256bit encryption, and that's good enough to secure your bank information.

I'm not worried about my truck.
 

TechnicallyReal

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The rest of that paragraph says exactly that. The fob isn't sending out a constant signal (otherwise battery life would be terrible.) It's only responding to the interrogation signal sent by the vehicle.



The insecurity isn't related to the length of the key, but of the type of encryption used for the key. Key meaning cipher, not keyfob. 1024bit RSA has been broken, but 128bit AES hasn't. RC4 and DES types of encryption are also insecure. This means that you don't have to cycle through every possible option before getting the right code. Instead, you just decrypt the original message.

For general cryptography, the math says the number of possible keys with 128 bits is 2 raised to the power of 128, or 3.4x10^38, or 340 undecillion. Assuming no information on the nature of the key is available, a code-breaking attempt would require testing each possible key until one was found that worked.

Assuming that enough computing power was massed to test 1 trillion keys per second, testing all possible keys would take 10.79 quintillion years. This is about 785 million times the age of the visible universe (13.75 billion years). On the other hand, the attacker might get lucky in the first 10 minutes.

Most SSL certificates for websites use 128bit or 256bit encryption, and that's good enough to secure your bank information.

I'm not worried about my truck.
I agree with everything you said. Without knowing the actual encryption used or anything it's hard to really judge how safe it really is, though. Hackers always seem to find some slip-up in the implementation or simply gain access to information that makes the task easier. I'm sure they'll always find some way to get a FOB's signal if they want it, be it bombarding the airwaves with random interrogation signals to wake up FOBs, or by discovering a pattern that allows them to more quickly target a certain brand or model of vehicle, or by finding out that the encryption key used by some manufacturer was as simple the VIN # or VIN + MY or something stupid and lazy like that. No matter how good the encryption, there's always some fault, and usually it lies within human error or it's just sitting on a server somewhere. That's also how most people get "hacked". Maybe they use the same password for everything, it gets leaked in some data breach (or simply guessed), someone finds that it works on gmail, and they're good to do whatever they want and it didn't really matter how good the encryption was. For all we know someone could gain access to Ford's particular implementation details through social engineering of a Ford employee (or one from the manufacturer Ford chose for this system). The possibilities are endless.

But again, I'm not worried. 10ish years so far without issue. Survivorship bias helps. I'll still get my foil-lined box just because it's cheap and looks nicer than what I'm already using to place my keys into. I think going further by putting keys in pouches when out and about is a little overkill imo.
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