Hypothesis on transmission

[puda]

Okay so I didn’t find anyone talking about this yet but I figured I start a new thread. My thought:

The transmission in our Rangers learn from our driving habits. After driving long enough, many run into issues with gears 3/4/5.

I believe the issue stems from the “learning” the CPU does and it eventually causes the bad shifting.

The owner, fearing the tranny is crapping out, goes to Ford to have the system worked on. Ford simply erases the memory of the transmission learning… BOOM! The tranny feels great again.

I just recently un-tuned by truck which wipes the memory. Suddenly my truck is shifting beautifully again.

This is only a hypothesis at this point but if others on here with bad shifting want to help test it with their tuners, I think this could be a solution.

I've experienced what I would say is shifting performance that degrades over time as well. I put the Ford Performance tune on at about 4,000 miles because of the amount of bogging the engine would do. After the tune, I felt the truck drove amazing. At around 15,000 I started using tow/haul mode to help in the mountains. That worked phenomenally for about 10,000 miles. Now I can't drive in tow/haul mode at all because the downshift from 5 to 4 is so violent so I started driving in sport mode. That seems to be mostly smooth but I would describe intermittent losses of power in the 3-4-5 upshift. And I'm talking head almost hits the stearing wheel type power loss when accelerating from a stop and then it grabs again.

I have also thought about taking off the tune and seeing how things behave, I'll post back up once I get my seat delete done if I decide to remove the tune. I decided to stretch my warranty out to 100,000 miles because of my concerns with the transmission so it's not a real high priority.

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[TJC]

Okay so I didn’t find anyone talking about this yet but I figured I start a new thread. My thought:

The transmission in our Rangers learn from our driving habits. After driving long enough, many run into issues with gears 3/4/5.

I believe the issue stems from the “learning” the CPU does and it eventually causes the bad shifting.

The owner, fearing the tranny is crapping out, goes to Ford to have the system worked on. Ford simply erases the memory of the transmission learning… BOOM! The tranny feels great again.

I just recently un-tuned by truck which wipes the memory. Suddenly my truck is shifting beautifully again.

This is only a hypothesis at this point but if others on here with bad shifting want to help test it with their tuners, I think this could be a solution.

If your hypothesis is correct, then Ford screwed up the learning algos...making them much too aggressive, allowing them to exceed hardware limitations.

I can only guess how many lines of code are now embedded in modern vehicles, but Forscan has a great deal in common with regedit and poledit in Windoz (I am talking metaphorically here)... anyone here remember the "Blue Screen of Death" ???? And Ctrl-Alt-Delete ??? Bill Gates made both famous.

I coded for years. Everything from assembler to C, to PLAS (on IBM mainframes) to AI Neural Networks (both HW & SW here) and knowledgebases. I found it very easy to make Software do what I wanted, but extremely difficult to control what I didn't want it to do.

All coders know they must anticipate every possible input no matter how unlikely and code to inhibit/limit them. Think black box with input signals and desired output signals. You must consider what happens when incorrect input signals occur and how the black box handles them. You must set limits to how much an input can affect the output. I know this is overly simplistic, but it was the reality back when I was coding years ago.

In modern autos, It is now no longer just about the mechanical hardware. The software is just as important, and one can break the other.

I remember the first IBM 12" monochrome PC displays on the original first gen IBM PC. You could actually destroy the monitor with incorrect software settings. And it was very easy to do. (think refresh rate)

If you are correct, it seems we may still be on that Merry-Go-Round.

- T

 

[Big Blue]

If your hypothesis is correct, then Ford screwed up the learning algos...making them much too aggressive, allowing them to exceed hardware limitations.

I can only guess how many lines of code are now embedded in modern vehicles, but Forscan has a great deal in common with regedit and poledit in Windoz (I am talking metaphorically here)... anyone here remember the "Blue Screen of Death" ???? And Ctrl-Alt-Delete ??? Bill Gates made both famous.

I coded for years. Everything from assembler to C, to PLAS (on IBM mainframes) to AI Neural Networks (both HW & SW here) and knowledgebases. I found it very easy to make Software do what I wanted, but extremely difficult to control what I didn't want it to do.

All coders know they must anticipate every possible input no matter how unlikely and code to inhibit/limit them. Think black box with input signals and desired output signals. You must consider what happens when incorrect input signals occur and how the black box handles them. You must set limits to how much an input can affect the output. I know this is overly simplistic, but it was the reality back when I was coding years ago.

In modern autos, It is now no longer just about the mechanical hardware. The software is just as important, and one can break the other.

I remember the first IBM 12" monochrome PC displays on the original first gen IBM PC. You could actually destroy the monitor with incorrect software settings. And it was very easy to do. (think refresh rate)

If you are correct, it seems we may still be on that Merry-Go-Round.

- T

Yup, even in machine design you have to design for all possible uses. But, it's basically impossible to predict what some idiot might try to do with your design. Because idiots are some ingenious.

 

[RedlandRanger]

Yup, even in machine design you have to design for all possible uses. But, it's basically impossible to predict what some idiot might try to do with your design. Because idiots are some ingenious.

I learned a LONG time ago that "if someone CAN do it, eventually someone WILL do it".

Software quality has been going in the crapper for years and is only getting worse. Coupled with increasing systems complexity and increasing reliance on software, it does not seem to be a good trajectory to me. This is not a Ford specific problem either.....

 

[TJC]

I learned a LONG time ago that "if someone CAN do it, eventually someone WILL do it".

The same goes for governments and technology...

If they can (technically do something), they will.

It has been my mantra for over 40 years now... think of the ramifications of this technology merged with AI, Biotech and Nanotech.

"Google reports that its Sycamore quantum processor has succeeded in making instant calculations that would require the fastest conventional computers currently in existence almost half a century to complete, according to a new paper by the company’s quantum AI division."​

Full article can be found here

(Not my intent to hijack this thread...)

 

[Jacob]

Roughly 500 mile mark since wiping the memory. Still shifting butter smooth.
Total conspiracy here but what if ford did this on purpose so people would bring in their vehicles every so many miles with “issues” charge them a couple hundred for diagnostic and then in reality just clear the memory.

 

[TJC]

I may be resetting my transmission and see if it clears things up!

 

[RonG]

Ford and Lincoln vehicles with lubricant issue recalled


The vehicles have an inadequate amount of lubricant in the rear drive unit


James Limbach Reporter


Ford Motor Company is recalling 147 model year 2020-2021 Edges, model year 2020 Lincoln Nautilus's and Ford Escapes and model year 2021 Lincoln Corsairs and Ford Bronco Sports.


An inadequate amount of lubricant in the rear drive unit may cause seizure of the rear drive axle.


In the rear drive unit seizes, there may be a loss of drive and/or a loss of vehicle control, increasing the risk of a crash.


What to do


Ford will notify owners, and dealers will check the rear drive unit lubricant level. Axles found to have lubricant at the minimum level will be filled to the full level. Axles found to be below the minimum lubricant fill level will be replaced free of charge.


The recall was expected to begin February 1, 2021.

 

[RonG]

I may be resetting my transmission and see if it clears things up!

replace the oil read this its on all vehicles :
Ford and Lincoln vehicles with lubricant issue recalled


The vehicles have an inadequate amount of lubricant in the rear drive unit


James Limbach Reporter


Ford Motor Company is recalling 147 model year 2020-2021 Edges, model year 2020 Lincoln Nautilus's and Ford Escapes and model year 2021 Lincoln Corsairs and Ford Bronco Sports.


An inadequate amount of lubricant in the rear drive unit may cause seizure of the rear drive axle.


In the rear drive unit seizes, there may be a loss of drive and/or a loss of vehicle control, increasing the risk of a crash.


What to do


Ford will notify owners, and dealers will check the rear drive unit lubricant level. Axles found to have lubricant at the minimum level will be filled to the full level. Axles found to be below the minimum lubricant fill level will be replaced free of charge.


The recall was expected to begin February 1, 2021.

 

[NotBudule]

Mine is actually pretty damn good in Sport mode , which is where i have been leaving it exclusively for about the last 1500 miles or so , minimal drop on milage but well worth it to me , no lug like in Drive and no clunky downshifts like in Tow ... (radio volume drowns out the extra rpms , if need be , i actually like it now and pretend im back in my 2 stroke dirt bike days }

 

[VoodooRanger]

With myself wanting to drive to Overland Expo PNW next year, this is certainly an issue that has lately been having my ears perk up. My truck currently has under 53k miles and the transmission has some issues.

For the last 30-40k miles I have been driving mostly in tow/haul mode. I prefer the way the truck drives/shifts/holds gears better. Sport I use on my trips north once I hit the higher elevations and trails. The standard mode makes the truck feel like an aged dog. More so with my bed rack and rooftop tent mounted on the back.

Issues I have on occasion is delay in shifts and hard downshift at slow speeds. Most noticeable when going from 3-4 or 4-5. Transmission seems to have that issue even more when the truck has been sitting for a long period of time. At work we have two 2019/2020 F150s with the 2.7 and 10 speed. You can crank them up after they sat parked for the entire weekend and rip it down the road just fine. I always use them(their transmissions) as a comparison to mine. While I know the power plant is different, they shift so much smoother.

I hope something comes out of all of this soon. I was considering having the transmission flushed before my trip to Virginia in October. One to put in fresh fluid but also top it off with the correct amount.

 

[Racket]

TSB 22-2428 seems to indicate that Ford made changes to the CDF in the 10r80 at the end of 2022 so that means most of us have the 'defective' design. I've seen 'updated' drums for sale (on Ebay). Part #JR3Z-7J351-B replaces the defective JR3Z-7H351-A.



Perusing other Ford forums and aftermarket transmission vendors suggests the clutch pack materials aren't all that durable - most 'upgrades' go straight to the Raybestos replacements although I'm surprised Ford simply didn't (or maybe they do) contract with them.

Last and potentially the most complicated is addressing the valve body. I notice replacing it is a Ford go-to, and while performance versions exist all those solutions require reprogramming via Ford proprietary software and it sounds like FORSCAN maybe? Or... bite the bullet and pay Ford the shop fee to do this. It might be the safest/surest solution.

I wonder if the engine tuning companies can access these parameters and integrate that in? (See Edit below)

And: https://www.transmissiondigest.com/shift-pointers-getting-10r80-shaft/

The replacement pan would be a no-brainer in any of these cases if for no other reason to facilitate drain/fill service.

The remote dipstick is going to be a must have if any of us go this route.

That's where my thinking is at right now. Our trucks - even with insane power upgrades - shouldn't overwhelm this transmission even if we max out towing capacities routinely but it seems unfair that it should be up to us owners to have to resolve this.

Otherwise (shrug) the transmission should be fine!

Edit to add: I have a custom Unleashed tune and it dawned on me if the valve body swap would require a software update it might be an issue with my tune which has the @TORQUERULES trans mod. I emailed Torrie and he confirmed if anyone in my position were to do anything regarding the transmission he would have to update the tune. He wouldn't be able to do anything about the swap as far as software goes, that would require diagnostic software after the repair/upgrade then he would need a new base file. The process would be:

1) uninstall the tune

2) replace/upgrade the transmission components

3) software update via IDS (https://www.fordtechservice.dealerconnection.com/Rotunda/MCSIDSDownloadSoftware - $150 for 2 day license) maybe FDRS which is supposed to be better(?) and cheaper $50/2 day license - unsure about Forscan capabilities? It requires a J2534 pass through interface it looks like.

4) new base file -> Unleashed

5) install and test updated tune. Previous tunes with my minor upgrades went through a couple revisions and I got the transmission shift mod eventually too.

In all these hypotheticals if I pursue this instead of waiting on the transmission to fail and wrangle with/wait on Ford I'd need to find a competent local transmission shop, order the appropriate parts and make sure they have the software to get me back running first. I'm waiting to see if Suncoast gets their collective act together and responds with something cohesive. I'm in the dark at the moment guessing how much this might cost and if it would be worth it to me. I see people spending $3K and up to 'fix' the suspension, so if I spend marginally more than that for the transmission I think its valid.

 

[usbjbma]

Regardless of what that clown 'FordBossMe' says, the adaptives in the transmission are not for learning your driving style, they are for learning and adapting to the transmission operation over time and for learning an initial setting after repairs or changes to the driveline. (Clutch apply times/fill rates of the pistons/etc.)

One only has to look at the very specific procedure that you are supposed to use after resetting the adaptive tables.

From: https://gearsmagazine.com/magazine/the-more-you-know-about-the-10r80-the-better-off-you-are/
___________________________________________________________
"The Adaptive Learning Drive Cycle must be performed after any of the following procedures are performed:

• Transmission rebuild or replaced
• TCM replaced or reprogrammed
• Major engine work performed
• Air/fuel management adaptive values reset

Perform the adaptive learning drive cycle on a level road surface as follows:

1. Record, and then clear any DTC’s
2. Drive the vehicle until the engine and transmission reach normal operating temperature.
3. Accelerate from a stop with light throttle (15%), ensuring that upshifts 1st through 8th occur at engine speeds between 1300-1600 rpm.
4. Continue to accelerate (may apply slightly more throttle after 7-8 upshift at 32-38 mph (51-61 km/h) until you achieve 55 mph (88 km/h) and the 8-9 and 9-10 shifts complete.
5. Brake very gently to a complete stop and hold the foot brake for five (5) seconds.
6. Shift the transmission to Neutral. Wait 1 second.
7. Shift the transmission to Reverse. Wait 2 seconds.
8. Shift the transmission to Neutral. Wait 1 second.
9. Shift the transmission to Drive. Wait 2 seconds.
10. Repeat Steps 3 through 9 six (6) additional times.

After the final step, place the vehicle in park and cycle the ignition key off. Wait 3-5 minutes before driving."
________________________________________________________

Our transmission has 6 solenoids, and they are magnetic, which is why the 150k mile fluid change IMO is insane. Even vacuuming out the fluid and changing it on a 30k schedule is better than waiting that long.

Resetting and relearning the transmission just resets it to generic 'as built' parameters which may or may not give you better feeling shifts, who knows, it would be dependent on how the trans has worn up to this point.

There are starting to be some aftermarket parts for the 10R80 from reputable vendors that look to be chasing after some problems that we have:

https://www.sonnax.com/units/631-10r80

FWIW, these Sonnax parts are drop-in if someone wants to try them, Sonnax is a company I'd trust that has done their homework.

https://www.sonnax.com/parts/5619-main-pressure-regulator-valve-kit
https://www.sonnax.com/parts/5641-tcc-priority-valve-kit



But since most of us are under warranty, we won't know if those are worthy upgrades. When people start doing more rebuilds they'll start shaking out the hard part problems and eventually, we'll get to the place where a lot of other boxes are, damn near bulletproof.

Till then, change your fluid(every 30k or less), change your filter every 60k. That's about all we can do.

This is excellent info, thanks for sharing! I've been lurking and perusing the various transmission threads and haven't really seen any that apply to my circumstances. I'm not the original owner of a 2020 Ranger Lariat w/33K miles. The wrench light has illuminated a few times the past few weeks. As soon as the truck was turned off, the wrench would not illuminate upon the next startup. Since we had not experienced any drive-ability issues we finally took it into a dealership last week. Called yesterday for an update and they said transmission codes popped up and they would have their onsite transmission tech to troubleshoot further. I asked which codes and the service advisor said it was not in the notes.

My problem with it popping transmission related codes and difference between what I have seen posted here related to transmission problems is that we have not experienced any hunting, clunking, slippage, delayed shifts, jerking, hard gear shifts, no issues upon cold start up, and no limp mode. I wasn't thinking transmission at all b/c the ride felt flawless. We recently took a 700+ miles trip to the beach and no issues at all.

With all that said, I'm performing my own due diligence until I hear back from the dealership and was wondering if anyone else on the forum has experienced a similar sequence of events - no apparent drive-ability related/typical precursor transmission issues but transmission codes popped up on the FDRS/scan tool at the dealership...and if so, what happened from there?

 

[gwhalin]

I was always skeptical that these transmissions "learn" our driving styles. That has been debunked at this point right?

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

@gwhalin - There is one mention of it in the manual. I took a screenshot off my phone - the word "Transmission" is highlighted because I was doing a search for that word to see if it came up in the manual. This is the only place I found it.

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