10R80 Trans Adaptive Learning Truth

[RedlandRanger]

See "Fact 3" here: 10R80 Owners - ULTIMATE M6G 10R80 Facts + Resolutions to harsh or no shift conditions

That fact that the transmission "learns" or "adapts" has never been in question I don't think. The question is what is it learning?

1. Variances/tolerances in the specific transmission so it can function better
2. A specific driver's driving style.

My understanding has always been #1, but many people believe it is #2. Unless/until an engineer who worked on the transmission settles it, I don't think we will ever know for certain.

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[Dinglehead]

I think I've seen that somewhere. Kind of like doing the Hokey Pokey if I remember right.

Whats the trick? My googling has failed me.

 

[HenryMac]

That fact that the transmission "learns" or "adapts" has never been in question I don't think. The question is what is it learning?

1. Variances/tolerances in the specific transmission so it can function better
2. A specific driver's driving style.

My understanding has always been #1, but many people believe it is #2. Unless/until an engineer who worked on the transmission settles it, I don't think we will ever know for certain.

I don't have a dog in this hunt. But I find it interesting that we hear and read about when a different person drives the vehicle, that they experience weird transmission issues?

We've seen posts about it, and the tech in the video talks about it.

I guess as long as clearing the adaptive tables out works... it's all semantics.

 

[SilverSlugger]

RP seems angry (in nearly every reply on nearly every post).... Or is everyone here really a twat..?

Somebody get that guy a Snickers.....

Yeah it’s kinda like dealing with the woke people on Twitter…. Just on The other side of the extreme lolol

 

[Apples]

I've lived with the Ford Performance Tune for about a year. Besides the included engine performance upgrades, the programming also changes the "learning curve" of the transmission controller. Here are my thoughts.

It is NOT perfect! Shutters and stutters do happen, funny shifting, soft as well as hard shifts, occur, when you think it should be otherwise.

If you're a lead foot, the shifting pattern isn't like anything you're used to.

If you pussyfoot it, then get on it hard for awhile, then back to easy driving, expect shift issues.

But... Once it learns, and it DOES learn, things start getting much better.

I've also learned, that doing a lot of manual shifting (paying good attention to the tach) also keeps the shift patterns in place, as it were.

Overall, however, its fairly decent. With all of the mods I've added, and I really want to, the truck will deliver very hard and fast shifts in first, second, third, and forth. From fifth on, things are a bit softer, but then I don't visit the drag strip every day.

All of this means the adaptive shifting patterns are rather good, but you still have to put up with a few hiccups once in a while. If you don't like hiccups, then don't do the tune!


Ford Performance Tune
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Borla supplied, Ford exhaust system
Replacement turbo piping
Larger intercooler
Dedicated Intercooler fans

3,500 ft altitude, 0 to 60 5.3 seconds (traction limited), 1/4 mile 14.3 at 103 mph. Not bad for a 4,400 pound truck!

 

[Trigganometry]

Here is what I "think" is going on. I'm using PLC logic here because I think they're closely tied. There are a few different things going on so the best way to explain it is use the MPG calculators we all use as reference. So, trip provides instant numbers. While conversely the overall count is ongoing on another tab.

So in essence the system uses throttle position, torque, rpm to figure out the smoothest shift patterns in the instant group. As these accumulate if similar over time they get placed in the global group. So over time through the process of up or down votes in instant group it will compare with stored group and decide to bump up or down.

This is how the tuning guys are adapting our tyranny's. They know where the torque to RPM sweet spots are and when to shift.

Factory learning method just takes a longer time to arrive at your driving style curves to "adapt" to

 

[Leftcoast]

RP seems angry (in nearly every reply on nearly every post).... Or is everyone here really a twat..?

Somebody get that guy a Snickers.....

RP adds flavor to pot. Vanilla milquetoast forums are boring.

 

[D Fresh]

I'm going to have to agree with RP here.

As a person who actually drives a manual vehicle I KNOW my driving style when it comes to shifting. My Ranger had not adapted to my "style" whatsoever on 8500 miles.

Manually shifting to "teach" it most definitely isn't a thing either.

 

[GregM]

RP seems angry (in nearly every reply on nearly every post).... Or is everyone here really a twat..?

Somebody get that guy a Snickers.....

He keeps plenty of Prep H on hand. His supply might be getting Low

 

[AdamHarris]

RP I want you to take a second and imagine if you were a subject matter expert on a particular subject. You took your phone and made a YouTube video about this subject. Do you only state facts like you’re reading from a manual the entire time or would you infuse some personal anecdotes and let a little bit of “verbal diarrhea,” as you call it, creep into your video? Yes you would.

I’m actually not trying to stick up for the guy really, I don’t know him or know his background. Yes I’m trusting that he knows what he’s talking about. For me the fact that these adaptive tables can be reset tells the tale. If it was only mechanical parameters within the transmission that the software was learning to adjust to, then why on earth would anyone be able to reset these parameters anytime they want? Apparently it can even be done with foreskin…I mean forescan.

 

[RedlandRanger]

RP I want you to take a second and imagine if you were a subject matter expert on a particular subject. You took your phone and made a YouTube video about this subject. Do you only state facts like you’re reading from a manual the entire time or would you infuse some personal anecdotes and let a little bit of “verbal diarrhea,” as you call it, creep into your video? Yes you would.

I’m actually not trying to stick up for the guy really, I don’t know him or know his background. Yes I’m trusting that he knows what he’s talking about. For me the fact that these adaptive tables can be reset tells the tale. If it was only mechanical parameters within the transmission that the software was learning to adjust to, then why on earth would anyone be able to reset these parameters anytime they want? Apparently it can even be done with foreskin…I mean forescan.

I'm not sure how else it would be done honestly. The fact that you can clear the tables really has no bearing on it. The transmission has the ability to "learn" (whatever that means) and then stores it into tables - similar to fuel/air tables - if you didn't store it in a read/write (meaning you could clear it), you'd have to write it to a write once medium which just seems silly honestly. Once it was done the first time, you could never update it EVER.

To me, the fact that you can clear the tables means nothing - the other reason would be to update the tables when newer/better optimizations were found. Its all software and intended to be updated as improvements are found.

I have to kind of agree with RP on this one - the guy never states anything to back up his claims, just a bunch of anecdotal evidence which doesn't add to his credibility. If you clear the tables, then of course the behavior of the transmission is going to change - how long does it change?

I'd love to know the true story on this one - maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle - maybe it adjusts to manufacturing tolerances and does do some manner of adjusting to driving behavior - or maybe that driving behavior plays into how those tables are populated.

If anyone is brave and knows how to do it, we could test this theory - record/save off the values in those tables, then clear them. Drive 500 miles and then go back and look at the tables again to see what the values are. If it adjusts for manufacturing tolerances only, the tables should be mostly identical (with maybe slight variations for wear). You could repeat the process using different driving styles for the 500 miles and compare the tables for different driving styles to see if the values are significantly different.

 

[navsnipe]

The transmission adaptation is not mind reading and it is not infinite. It analyzes what you are doing via throttle, brakes, and steering and uses modes to best execute the operation.

For simplicity the say transmission has two programmed modes, sport and normal. Sport has a more aggressive throttle curve, longer gear holding, and downshift engine braking. Normal has a softer throttle curve, upshifts earlier for comfort and economy, and low engine braking effect downshifts.

Based on analysis the transmission sees what you are doing and decides via logic what mode to use. It also keeps a history of how often each mode is used and factors that as to what modes to use.

The programming is more complex than the above example. The priority is on economy when "normal" driving is determined by programmed parameters. Much like fuel trim tables, the transmission logic can adjust the parameters over time based on historical data.

The programming can be as complex as the developer makes it trying to account for every condition. The above explanation was given to me from a former coworker who worked for ZF and Torsen and worked in the specific field of vehicle and drivetrain control programming.

 

[THLONE]

How many passes does the drag racer have to make to get the trans re programed to race mode?

 

[Big Blue]

Been following this thread with interest. Quit an interesting discussion. I was one of those that did not believe the transmission learned your driving style. i am beginning to believe a little differently based on this thread. I still don't believe it learns your driving style but learns from it.

Some of the adaptive learning does have to do with mechanical tolerance variables within the transmission itself. I also believe the tables get adjusted based on the situations your driving style puts your truck into.

What does a transmission do? it shifts between gears with a certain abruptness based on a series of parameters. These parameters are based on speed, engine load, RPM and driver inputs like brakes, throttle position, probably a few more like if you are in D or S. Based on these inputs the transmission decides to upshift, down shift, stay in the same gear and how aggressively it shifts. Oh, I forgot about torque convertor lockup. That's really the only outputs the transmission has, right?

Initially the tables need some inputs for the truck to operate. As you drive the entries in the tables get adjusted based on your inputs for the given situation. probably by some algorithm written by the programmer maybe even making minor changes to adjoining entries. Over time this will adjust the operating characteristics on the transmission.

Here's where the fun part comes in. Not everyone's "Driving Style" will put the transmission in all situations. There fore there may be sections, maybe large sections, of the tables that are unchanged from the original entries. When someone else the truck they may put it in a situation it hasn't dealt with before. It has no option but to use its original programing. This could make it appear like the transmission is confused or sluggish.

Sorry to get so wordy. But I'm sure Phil will agree, that those of us with an engineering/designer back ground have minds wired differently. Think allot and deeply about things that intrigue us.

 

[Tom_C]

Been following this thread with interest. Quit an interesting discussion. I was one of those that did not believe the transmission learned your driving style. i am beginning to believe a little differently based on this thread. I still don't believe it learns your driving style but learns from it.

Some of the adaptive learning does have to do with mechanical tolerance variables within the transmission itself. I also believe the tables get adjusted based on the situations your driving style puts your truck into.

What does a transmission do? it shifts between gears with a certain abruptness based on a series of parameters. These parameters are based on speed, engine load, RPM and driver inputs like brakes, throttle position, probably a few more like if you are in D or S. Based on these inputs the transmission decides to upshift, down shift, stay in the same gear and how aggressively it shifts. Oh, I forgot about torque convertor lockup. That's really the only outputs the transmission has, right?

Initially the tables need some inputs for the truck to operate. As you drive the entries in the tables get adjusted based on your inputs for the given situation. probably by some algorithm written by the programmer maybe even making minor changes to adjoining entries. Over time this will adjust the operating characteristics on the transmission.

Here's where the fun part comes in. Not everyone's "Driving Style" will put the transmission in all situations. There fore there may be sections, maybe large sections, of the tables that are unchanged from the original entries. When someone else the truck they may put it in a situation it hasn't dealt with before. It has no option but to use its original programing. This could make it appear like the transmission is confused or sluggish.

Sorry to get so wordy. But I'm sure Phil will agree, that those of us with an engineering/designer back ground have minds wired differently. Think allot and deeply about things that intrigue us.

So, will the tranny eventually update the tables based on new circumstances, or will it just sit in a corner, rocking back and forth and drooling on itself until the tables get cleared? I would hope it will update the tables. If not that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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