Think I Threw a Rod....

[Shomare]

I owned a highly modified Focus RS, everything was Montune. They are known for faulty head gaskets which mine never had until I was required to have it changed out and from then on, it was down hill. The dealership replaced it four times and never got it right. They did the repair half assed, doing the minimum each time, failed to adjust the valves, failed to tighten the engine mounts and left me broken down on the side of the road once with an overheated engine. They should have replaced the entire thing...

I lemon lawed the car, they gave me 6500 and told me to keep the car. I traded it in on my Ranger and the poor slob who bought it bought an extended warranty that the dealer refused to honor saying the car that they sold him was modified!

Kid is an ace mechanic and sent me photos of the engine after he pulled the head. It was a mess and clearly they failed to do the fourth repair properly. He's rebuilding the engine on his own and is a better sport about it than I would have been.

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[t4thfavor]

I respectfully disagree. I know all of Ford factory HP ratings are “at the crank”. I used 350 HP as an example...and the top end of what the mods he called out “might” deliver. Without a few dyno pulls, who knows? He’s more than likely under 320, but that matters not. IMHO, based on precedent, Ford will need to prove the tune or mods caused the failure. That’s not as easy as just saying “it’s tuned, so it’s your fault”. The Magenson-Moss Act does not work like that. What you said is specifically why the act was developed in the first place...to protect consumers from big corporations waving their power. They must prove what failed and just blaming the tune doesn’t fly.

I don't disagree that the spirit of the MM Act is as you describe it, but it's often misunderstood by persons who spent more years in law school than they did under a car lift.

They often successfully argue that the engineering and testing certified the engine in this application for X HP@Y Torque @ Z RPM, anything outside of those parameters is fair game for the lawyers as proof that modifying the calibrations to provide anything other than XYZ caused the failure. Ford will 99% say "sue us" even though that's a shitty answer, it's the answer the bean counters have calculated as cheaper than setting the precident that we fix tuned motors.

I just went through a warranty issue for 2 years (on the ranger) where my rear brakes wouldn't stop eating themselves every 500 miles, they literally told me I had to sue, or accept their fix (which was brakes every 500-1000 miles) and an extended warranty.

 

[dtech]

Honestly, I don't have experience with this....thank goodness. However, for what it's worth, my dealer told me that if a failure occurs, if it can't be traced directly back to a mod/tune...they will fix under warranty. Just what I was told by the folks I personally deal with. Can't speak for other people or dealerships.

yeah well sounds pretty simple but there is a tear down cost which I believe the owner pays for, reimbursed if it's covered under warranty I believe but if isn't warranty then an owner may eat that cost. And let's say Ford says failure because of a modification, then if a owner wishes to contest that they may have to go to court - enlisting their own experts. Not referring to this case because the op has the insurance from his tune supplier - which may prove to be a very wise investment.
So you also own a Hyundai as do I - Hyundai has a long standing reputation for denying warranty claims whenever they think they can get away with it - with the Theta II engine they have agreed to cover engine failures owing to crank bearing failures for the life of the vehicle - a massive multi-billion dollar settlement . Early on Hyundai was denying warranty claims when engines seized and claimed it was owing to lack of proper maintenance - later on it was established the engine design is defective, hence the settlement but it all started with owners who experienced seized engines seeking help from US Federal agencies.
Were I to pursue a tune I'd go the FoMoCo route or buy the tuner's insurance as the op did, because you don't know what the OEM will decide in case of mods - to an extent they have the upper hand in these situations.

 

[Shomare]

wait what?

an ace mechanic bought an extended warranty? what on earth for?

what did he try and warranty on the extended plan that they denied?

The car had less than 20K on in when I traded it in. It was stored for the winter. He wanted and extended warranty because of the mods, just in case. They sold it to him and refused to honor it. The dealership then changed hands, the previous owner selling it to another owner making getting a resolution nearly impossible and being a mechanic he said F it, I'll fix it myself and is installing new pistons and rings from Montune to pick up where I left off.

 

[Shomare]

I don't disagree that the spirit of the MM Act is as you describe it, but it's often misunderstood by persons who spent more years in law school than they did under a car lift.

They often successfully argue that the engineering and testing certified the engine in this application for X HP@Y Torque @ Z RPM, anything outside of those parameters is fair game for the lawyers as proof that modifying the calibrations to provide anything other than XYZ caused the failure. Ford will 99% say "sue us" even though that's a shitty answer, it's the answer the bean counters have calculated as cheaper than setting the precident that we fix tuned motors.

I just went through a warranty issue for 2 years (on the ranger) where my rear brakes wouldn't stop eating themselves every 500 miles, they literally told me I had to sue, or accept their fix (which was brakes every 500-1000 miles) and an extended warranty.

People hold up the MM like it's a shield. I would like to see the success vs failure rate on those who have fought the battle. The bottom line is, you have to pay to play. If you are going to put a bunch of aftermarket parts on your car, it is a calculated risk. If you can't afford to fix it if you break it, then don't touch it. The middle ground is sticking with for example Ford Performance, which gives modest ford approved gains.

Level your truck with Ford parts and its covered, level it with RC and they might argue that the level caused premature failure of your suspension components because you modified it beyond manufacturers specs. Add the Ford Performance tune and you aren't even breathing on what these motors are capable of and you are still covered. Add a 5 star tune and you are on your own.

 

[NickTheEnforcer]

People hold up the MM like it's a shield. I would like to see the success vs failure rate on those who have fought the battle. The bottom line is, you have to pay to play. If you are going to put a bunch of aftermarket parts on your car, it is a calculated risk. If you can't afford to fix it if you break it, then don't touch it. The middle ground is sticking with for example Ford Performance, which gives modest ford approved gains.

Level your truck with Ford parts and its covered, level it with RC and they might argue that the level caused premature failure of your suspension components because you modified it beyond manufacturers specs. Add the Ford Performance tune and you aren't even breathing on what these motors are capable of and you are still covered. Add a 5 star tune and you are on your own.

This horse has gotten beaten to a red-smudge in the road, but since everyone is being civilized for the most part I have a few MM Act thoughts:
I've attached what I believe is the complete Act, I dont see anywhere that any manufacturer or secondary market sales transaction is required to provide 'warranty coverage' when a non-factory part or modification is made. From what I always understood the Act to focus on is the aftermarket 'direct-replacement' parts such as brake pads/shoes, oil filters, etc. etc...
This protects the consumer from the OEM manufacturer to say engine blew and we see you have a non-OEM filter in it, to bad so sad. now if you modify the 'location' of the filter it definitely gives them a hook to hang their hat on to deny [if they want]. The MM spells out that if a OEM manufacturer requires a specific part to keep within warranty they MUST provide it for free. Example in the early 90's I knew quite a few Honda owners who were religious about going to the dealer for service, when i pressed the question they always said they were told that if there was a problem and could not prove the deal did the maintenance they might be denied the claim. Crazy but it was happening many years after MM was passed in 1975! I was running a Goodyear dealership after my USAF time while I was back in school so I dealt with a lot of folks and when I gave them a copy of the MM Act they were amazed. Our Fram rep used to give us the MM on a handout on tear-off pads.

two big focal points:

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act prohibits product manufacturers from conditioning consumer warranties on the use of any original equipment part or service.

To prevail under Magnuson-Moss, a plaintiff must show there is a valid warranty, the product was presented for repair during the warranty period, and the manufacturer failed to conform the product to the provisions of the warranty within a reasonable amount of time or number of repair attempts. [now what does the FoMoCo sales/warranty doc's say that we signed regarding mod's and/or parts that do not conform to OEM 'specifications' ???...

Since we are all in free style mode and my pets are dead I'm going to hijack this thread a bit and make it about KEY WEST!! Since I'm in northern IL and it's colder than a witches T$t this week...
one of my favorite places. ??

 

[D Fresh]

my understanding of the MM act, is that it legally regulates manufacturers who have published warranties, to be clear with those warranties and wording. It doesn't tip the favor in either direction from manufacturer or consumer. As the manufacturer they have the right from the get go to lay out their terms. As a consumer, you have a right to refuse them and not buy the product if the warranty doesn't meet your specifications.
if the warranty specifically states criteria relating to aftermarket mods, and that the use of them voids the warranty, is the requirements of the MM act not fulfilled? I believe in the fine print, Fords says this in their own words.
by signing on the dotted line and reading the warranty, you agreed to the limited liability.


Im open for correction if you can offer me facts.

This is correct.

Honestly, I don't have experience with this....thank goodness. However, for what it's worth, my dealer told me that if a failure occurs, if it can't be traced directly back to a mod/tune...they will fix under warranty. Just what I was told by the folks I personally deal with. Can't speak for other people or dealerships.

20+ years of owning and being around modded vehicles tells me differently.

If not an accessory failure and if there are ANY knock events logged Ford will almost assuredly deny it.

Regardless, the ball is in their court. They have an entire legal department, they know you'll have to retain counsel, and that fees will exceed the repair cost.

Good thing the OP has the tune insurance.

 

[Vitis805]

since they don't seem to be following the conversation here (or at least commenting)?

Kudos to @Stage3Motorsports for bringing their knowledge into the situation. It gives me more reason to give them my patronage. On the other side of things @LevittownFordParts.com has remained silent. This is the most disconcerting thing for me in this entire thread. They are a Ford dealer and certainly have more experience in this situation than anyone on the forum. They are a sponsor, have made money here by selling many members a tune. It would be nice to have clarification about warranties straight from the horses mouth. I wonder what they would do if Project Midnight had bought his truck, an extended warranty, and the Ford calibration all from @LevittownFordParts.com, and then this happens.

 

[Jason@Stage3]

Kudos to @Stage3Motorsports for bringing their knowledge into the situation. It gives me more reason to give them my patronage. On the other side of things @LevittownFordParts.com has remained silent. This is the most disconcerting thing for me in this entire thread. They are a Ford dealer and certainly have more experience in this situation than anyone on the forum. They are a sponsor, have made money here by selling many members a tune. It would be nice to have clarification about warranties straight from the horses mouth. I wonder what they would do if Project Midnight had bought his truck, an extended warranty, and the Ford calibration all from @LevittownFordParts.com, and then this happens.

Even if he bought from that dealer, they would be smart to not speak out either so they dont set a precedent where everyone thinks they'll have the same result if it happens to them, good or bad.

On top of what @RANGER PRIDE said, the Ford Performance Tune is explicitly advertised by Ford Performance to not effect warranty status, while 5-Star (and just about any other aftermarket tuning) is not, so it's a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison.

And to be fair to our frenemies over at @LevittownFordParts.com, no one sees context on the internet, so for them to take a blanket stance when a large portion of it is out their hands isn't really fair.

 

[Vitis805]

@RANGER PRIDE Fair enough.

I do think however that since they are selling their parts and the tune on the forum that they should be held accountable for answering hypothetical questions that help explain how the warranty works.

I bought something relatively expensive from them, and wanted to know all the info I could about it. I have an email from one of their salesman that answered some hypothetical questions for me before I committed to purchasing, but their is still much confusion.

 

[Vitis805]

@Stage3Motorsports also, fair enough.

I have faith in the explanation granted to me from @LevittownFordParts.com that the Ford tune does not affect my powertrain or extended warranty contracts. There are A LOT of members here however that do think that the Ford tune makes their powertrain and extended warranties only valid for the tune's warranty (3/36k) and that if something catastrophic happened after 3/36k that Ford could deny the powertrain and extended warranties BECAUSE of the Ford tune being installed. Such is the prevailing speculation on this thread, "a tune is a tune".

 

[dtech]

They must prove what failed and just blaming the tune doesn’t fly.

Well that's really simplistic and pie in the sky thinking, the flow chart someone posted provides a better picture of the reality of the process as well as does the Ford warranty extracts. Ford knowing this was a modified engine can deny the warranty claim and then the owner can elect to pay for a tear down to contest that denial and show evidence that the failure was in no way caused by the performance modification. So let's say a connecting rod failed - unless the owner can prove that the rod was defective in some way - and that can involve a good deal of cost - then Ford has the upper hand and can choose to deny the claim. On the other hand if say an oil pump failed then Ford could well say it'a legit warranty claim - upstream in the thread the tune supplier suggested to be very nice to both the dealership and Ford - because they hold most of the cards in these matters.
The intent of the MM act was to prevent what was once common occurrences such as a manufacture denying a warranty claim for reasons that could be as simple as using an aftermarket oil filter, belt, spark plug, etc. In essence allowing the consumer to choose whatever part maker that meets the oem spec or requiring the vehicle to be serviced at a Ford dealer. So some aftermarket parts don't meet the oem specs and some non Ford techs are not certified, this could result in a warranty denial. This is why some folks choose to use Ford parts and let the dealer service their vehicles and not modify their engines or if they do buy Ford's mod.
So the burden of proof in some cases can lie moreso with the owner - as it appears to be in this case, pay for the teardown and then provide documented evidence that the failure was in no way related to the modifications. Some companies are known to be more objective and fairer in the warranty process than others.

 

[Rviator]

All states vary and I'm no lawyer but in Colorado your vehicle is an extension of your home in so much that you can conceal a firearm in your vehicle, but not on your person, without a concealed carry permit.

I would think the great state of Texas would be similar?

Also, it's not concealed on your lap.

Seriously though, best move if something like that ever happens again is to NOT try to start it again and certainly don't drive it further.

Since I no longer live there this info may be out of date but you had to be crossing a county line, essentially be traveling, on the trip for it to be legal without a concealed carry license.

 

[dtech]

@RANGER PRIDE Fair enough.

I do think however that since they are selling their parts and the tune on the forum that they should be held accountable for answering hypothetical questions that help explain how the warranty works.

I bought something relatively expensive from them, and wanted to know all the info I could about it. I have an email from one of their salesman that answered some hypothetical questions for me before I committed to purchasing, but their is still much confusion.

Ford doesn't provide a written warranty statement that explicitly defines the warranty t&c 's ? I would think they would be required to do so.

 

[aeroshots]

This thread is all over the place, blown engine, pets, CDWs.

This is from the Concealed Deadly Weapon class I took, If you have to use your weapon against some one, no matter how right or justified or legal you are, Your life will be forever changed and not for the better. Use it as a last resort to save your life or life of some one else.

So to Project M, for what it is worth (probably less than 2 cents) I think you did exactly the right thing. I hope the engine thing works out for you. My Ranger is not tuned but I tuned a Focus ST in the past. Huge difference and made it a blast to drive. Vehicles can be used for many things like work, basic transportation or just plain fun. Sometimes you can combine these things. A tuned Ranger is a perfect vehicle to do that with. Hope you are back on the road soon and your wallet does not take too big of a hit.

I will now step off of the soap box and show myself the door.?

Come on, show a photo of your dog. ?

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