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[Floyd]

I completely understand direct injection. Now does ethanol some how work differently in the cylinder of a direct injection engine? Than it would in a port injection or a carburated application? Its still going to chemically cool the cylinder tempature correct? And blending it will obviously rsise octane. Would you not agree? I bring up water meth injection to simply make a point about the need for specific tuning. How the fuel gets to the cylinder is irrelevant. Yes methanol injection has its own pump. But once it reaches the cylinders. It is still just being burnt with the gasoline. What does the fuel delivery system. Have to do with the science of how alcohol is conbusted in an internal combustion engine? Obviously the stock fuel system has plenty of room if Ford can get and addition 50hp out of a tune. Without the need of changing injectors or the fuel pump.

Not the point,
I was responding to your post in which you claimed "The E has a chemical cooling effect. Which will drop your Intake air temperature".
Combustion chamber temperatures are a whole 'nother subject.

Allow me to reiterate...
"You seem to be a pretty smart guy, but you just need to do a little more research, and please stop running Ethanol above an E10 mix in your new Ranger until you do.
Please report back here (afterward) and share what you learn,"

Still... please be careful not to curse Ford if you destroy a perfectly well engineered engine.

I don't really wish to pursue this confounded discussion any further for now.
Thanks for your thoughts and good luck with your experimentation.
I've seen enough oil on the track to avoid what you're selling.

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[outdoorphotog]

.So you cant name a single problem? Got ya. Watch the video I posted. They couldn't find a problem with it either. When using ethanol blended fuel. I simply gave you another option to 87 or 93 octane with my first reply. And gave my reasoning behind the recommendation. I also explained the benefits of my recommendations. (Cylinder cooling which suppresses detonation & budget friendly higher octane fuel) And I at least backed up my thoughts with available science. If someone tells me I'm wrong. I would like for them to explain why? Saying it'll cause some yet unknown problem. Isn't constructive. If no one can name these phantom problems that you and frenchy assure me will accrue down the road......Are they really problems?

OBD2 will retard the timing based on knock which is determined by octane. How would
the ECU know to add more fuel based on you running E85? You will lean the motor out because the ECU has no way to compensate.

 

[Bluebeastsrt]

OBD2 will retard the timing based on knock which is determined by octane. How would
the ECU know to add more fuel based on you running E85? You will lean the motor out because the ECU has no way to compensate.

You answered your own question. The pcm will add timing til knock is detected. once knock is detected it starts pulling timing. With the higher octane of the ethanol. And the chemical cooling of the ethanol. The knock threshold will be higher to begin with.

 

[Bluebeastsrt]

I've seen enough oil on the track to avoid what you're selling.

As a spectator right?

 

[outdoorphotog]

Ok but if E85 is cooling so well what air fuel ratios would be acceptable to run ?

 

[Bluebeastsrt]

Ok but if E85 is cooling so well what air fuel ratios would be acceptable to run ?

The air fuel ratio will be automatically controlled by the pcm. The PCM will ad fuel and air til it either reaches the top of the timing table. Or until the knock sensors tell it to start pulling timing because it senses detonation. The air fuel ratio shouldn't change because you added another 5% ethanol. The duty cycle on the fuel injectors will be the first thing to most likely change (Increase) when more ethanol is introduced.

 

[Frenchy]

Ok but if E85 is cooling so well what air fuel ratios would be acceptable to run ?

Optimum air fuel ratio for regular fuel, 14.7:1. E85 9.8:1. Hmmmm so lets see who blows thier engine by running what they are not supposed to run without tuning and having correct part equipped in thier vehicle. Livernois has already stated they do not have a E50 and E85 tune because one of the fuel pumps in inadequate for Ethanol fuels.

 

[Porpoise Hork]

Optimum air fuel ratio for regular fuel, 14.7:1. E85 9.8:1. Hmmmm so lets see who blows thier engine by running what they are not supposed to run without tuning and having correct part equipped in thier vehicle. Livernois has already stated they do not have a E50 and E85 tune because one of the fuel pumps in inadequate for Ethanol fuels.

One would have to upgrade the HPFP in order to support running an E85 tune. @13 Second Ranger is one of the only people on here that I know of who has done it. He may be able to provide more information on the trials and tribulations with getting the truck to run on E85.

 

[outdoorphotog]

I am well aware of what the AFRs should be during boost and off boost.

If E85 requires roughly 35% more volume of fuel to light off. Flex fuel vehicles use a sensor to monitor the ethanol content and add fuel on a scale between E10-E85.

If you add E85 to a vehicle without that sensor, how would the computer know how to interpret the adjustment needed to add more fuel? In theory, you would be way to lean and using much less fuel bringing your AFRs well above 14.7 (using the same scaling as gasoline).

But I think what you are saying is that the computer will see this “higher octane value” and then advance the timing and adjust the fuel to where it needs to be by using the short term and long term fuel trims?

Seems like monitoring wideband O2 reading upstream of the cat converter would be the the only way to know for sure if it would work that way or not.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

Hi Folks,

From the owner's manual:

Note: Use of any fuel for which the vehicle
was not designed can impair the emission
control system, cause loss of vehicle
performance, and cause damage to the
engine which may not be covered by the
vehicle Warranty.
Do not use:
• Diesel fuel.
• Fuels containing kerosene or paraffin.
• Fuel containing more than 15% ethanol
or E85 fuel.
• Fuels containing methanol.
• Fuels containing metallic-based
additives, including manganese-based
compounds.
• Fuels containing the octane booster
additive, methylcyclopentadienyl
manganese tricarbonyl (MMT).
• Leaded fuel, using leaded fuel is
prohibited by law.
The use of fuels with metallic compounds
such as methylcyclopentadienyl
manganese tricarbonyl (commonly known
as MMT), which is a manganese-based
fuel additive, will impair engine
performance and affect the emission
control system.

This supports what I recall...the fuel system is designed to handle up to 15% ethanol. Any further increase is problematic. Foolish to be mixing E85 with the resultant % unknown for the fuel in the tank with such a alchemy mixture. JMO

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

 

[Bluebeastsrt]

I am well aware of what the AFRs should be during boost and off boost.

If E85 requires roughly 35% more volume of fuel to light off. Flex fuel vehicles use a sensor to monitor the ethanol content and add fuel on a scale between E10-E85.

If you add E85 to a vehicle without that sensor, how would the computer know how to interpret the adjustment needed to add more fuel? In theory, you would be way to lean and using much less fuel bringing your AFRs well above 14.7 (using the same scaling as gasoline).

But I think what you are saying is that the computer will see this “higher octane value” and then advance the timing and adjust the fuel to where it needs to be by using the short term and long term fuel trims?

Seems like monitoring wideband O2 reading upstream of the cat converter would be the the only way to know for sure if it would work that way or not.

Again. If your are running straight e85. The fuel system will require about 30% more volume. You are correct about that. My 800whp Mustang has a return fuel system with two GT350 fuel pumps. A larger fuel line. And much larger than stock injectors. It is tuned specifically for e85. However a gallon of e85 mixed to 87 octane gasoline doesn’t bring the ethanol content up to 85%. A good mix will be in the 15 to 20% Ethanol range. And yes the pcm will increase timing based on the throttle position sensor, injector duty cycle. And a multitude of other sensors. I’m going to copy and paste what you said as I agree with this statement also. You said......

But I think what you are saying is that the computer will see this “higher octane value” and then advance the timing and adjust the fuel to where it needs to be by using the short term and long term fuel trims? Professional tuners like Lund racing or palm beach dyno use these trims to Write their e85 tunes. There is no ethanol sensor on a coyote 5.0. Yet tuner use other parameters like you mentioned above. To control the fuel system on e85. And the coyote has been running like a rapped ape for years. And I’ll ad to whats highlighted above. Also that the knock sensor are going to need to be happy. I'm not going to respond to any more silly posts from anyone that thinks your going to blow your engine. By running e85 thru it. Like frenchy. ( That’s another thing you can google, Just type in “what will happen if I put e85 in my fuel tank by accident“) Googles say nothing will happen.And that’s a fact. Nothing catastrophic will happen. Worst case you my get a check engine light. But on the ranger forums. Engines explode! I think the more we discuss this topic. The more me and you Will find middle ground on the topic.

 

[Floyd]

As a spectator right?

18 years as an SCCA crew chief, IT and G-PROD
so yeah, spectator

I really have no interest in proving anything to you
and I would rather sit at the feet of my betters.

Sounds like you drag race?
Isn't that a car in drag?
Dagmars and fender skirts, right?

 

[Frenchy]

Again. If your are running straight e85. The fuel system will require about 30% more volume. You are correct about that. My 800whp Mustang has a return fuel system with two GT350 fuel pumps. A larger fuel line. And much larger than stock injectors. It is tuned specifically for e85. However a gallon of e85 mixed to 87 octane gasoline doesn’t bring the ethanol content up to 85%. A good mix will be in the 15 to 20% Ethanol range. And yes the pcm will increase timing based on the throttle position sensor, injector duty cycle. And a multitude of other sensors. I’m going to copy and paste what you said as I agree with this statement also. You said......

But I think what you are saying is that the computer will see this “higher octane value” and then advance the timing and adjust the fuel to where it needs to be by using the short term and long term fuel trims? Professional tuners like Lund racing or palm beach dyno use these trims to Write their e85 tunes. There is no ethanol sensor on a coyote 5.0. Yet tuner use other parameters like you mentioned above. To control the fuel system on e85. And the coyote has been running like a rapped ape for years. And I’ll ad to whats highlighted above. Also that the knock sensor are going to need to be happy. I'm not going to respond to any more silly posts from anyone that thinks your going to blow your engine. By running e85 thru it. Like frenchy. ( That’s another thing you can google, Just type in “what will happen if I put e85 in my fuel tank by accident“) Googles say nothing will happen.And that’s a fact. Nothing catastrophic will happen. Worst case you my get a check engine light. But on the ranger forums. Engines explode! I think the more we discuss this topic. The more me and you Will find middle ground on the topic.

Put simple when Ford says do not use and you decide to use anyways without doing any modifications don't come whining to us when your vehicle does go kaboom. Obviously the stoichiometric air fuel ratio for E85 is much lower then regular pump gas fuel. Also the computer does not have any programming from the factory to run E85. We are telling you this to try and help you out. If you decide to ignore us and run it anyways and your vehicle goes Kaboom that is on you, not us. Also Ford will laugh at you when they see you are doing this and tell you that you are on your own......

 

[outdoorphotog]

You are right, check engine light means everything is running great... ?

 

[Bluebeastsrt]

18 years as a SCCA crew chief, IT and G-PROD
so yeah, spectator

Exactly spectator. Those that can do. You just sit and watch. My nhra license keeps me running 8s. If you can turn. Your not going fast enough.

Put simple when Ford says do not use and you decide to use anyways without doing any modifications don't come whining to us when your vehicle does go kaboom. Obviously the stoichiometric air fuel ratio for E85 is much lower then regular pump gas fuel. Also the computer does not have any programming from the factory to run E85. We are telling you this to try and help you out. If you decide to ignore us and run it anyways and your vehicle goes Kaboom that is on you, not us. Also Ford will laugh at you when they see you are doing this and tell you that you are on your own......

Since I joined this forum. Ive read endless posts written out of fear. Don't lift your truck. You'll ruin the stock geometry. Don't use spacers. Its trash your wheel bearings. Dont put e85 in your gas. The engine will blow. Im taking bets. And I'll give every one of you 3 to 1 odds. If my truck explodes in the next year. Ill send everyone 10 dollars. If its still humming along in a year. You guy can pay pal me 3$ and shrug your shoulders and scratch your asses while you're saying dude got lucky. The proof is in the proverbial pudding. Ill keep you all posted. Keep em stock boys. Modding is for crazy people. Im out.

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