PSA For you folks that are removing / modifying the crash bars to install bigger tires.....

[docarter]

IMO the rarity of conditions that would have to come together to cause the collision which would drive the wheel into the cab, is almost only possibly in a crash lab. It could happen and undoubtedly has, but incredibly rare I think. Also an impact of that magnitude, would likely be so devastating few would survive anyway.

With that said, I know I would be 100% liable for damages that occurred as a result of any safety equipment I remove.

That's patently false. I just searched "head-on collision" on Google and these were in the top 100 results. You can see the difference between a car rated good in the IIHS small-overlap and one that wasn't designed for the test:

Sponsored

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

That's patently false. I just searched "head-on collision" on Google and these were in the top 100 results. You can see the difference between a car rated good in the IIHS small-overlap and one that wasn't designed for the test:

Did you search how many head on collisions happen?
What percentage of accidents are head on?
What percentage of head-on collisons have small-over-lap impact?
What percentage of accidents have wheel to cab intrusion?

Do you understand what IMO (In My Opinion) means?
Do you understand "rare, but it can happen"?

And lastly "Also an impact of that magnitude, would likely be so devastating few would survive anyway." How many of those crashes would not have ended in fatalities even with better small-overlap protection?

 

[JesseS]

I'm not sure why you quote me on that?

I would be 100% liable for damages (medical and personal) that occurred as a result of any safety equipment I remove.

I don't care about the vehicle either, certainly not more than the passengers safety, including my own.

I am okay removing them because of the odds of the indecent required to cause the wheel to come into the cab and therefore cause damage to my feet or the passengers feet is almost impossibly low. Not because I care about the truck more than my feet.

I took 'damages' to mean too vehicles or property, as opposed to Injurys to occupants. And as a retired LEO I can't count how many head on collisions result in component intrusion into the passenger compartment. Lower extremity entrapment is very common in these cases. And it is not just the medical & property damage costs, I for one could not cover a multi-million dollar personal liability lawsuit resulting from modifying vehicular safety equipment resulting in injury or death. Having a little bigger tire just isn't worth it to me.

 

[docarter]

The point of

Did you search how many head on collisions happen?
What percentage of accidents are head on?
What percentage of head-on collisons have small-over-lap impact?
What percentage of accidents have wheel to cab intrusion?

Do you understand what IMO (In My Opinion) means?
Do you understand "rare, but it can happen"?

And lastly "Also an impact of that magnitude, would likely be so devastating few would survive anyway." How many of those crashes would not have ended in fatalities even with better small-overlap protection?

I'm glad you asked. Here's a paper on the subject: https://www-esv.nhtsa.dot.gov/Proceedings/22/files/22ESV-000384.pdf

From the introduction: " Recent studies of frontal crashes identified several factors that are thought to lead to fatalities of restrained occupants in newer vehicles [Brumbelow and Zuby, 2009; Rudd et al., 2009]. The authors in both studies identified concentrated or limited engagement of frontal structures as one of the factors associated with increased risk to the occupants. These findings were consistent with those by Lindquist et al. [2004] who associated small overlap frontal crashes with a large percentage of fatalities in a Swedish study. As a result of the NHTSA study published by Bean et al. [2009], NHTSA stated its intent to further analyze low-offset and oblique frontal crashes in its Vehicle Safety Rulemaking & Research Priority Plan 2009-2011 published in November 2009 [NHTSA, 2009]."

You can read about the actual metrics in the paper.

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

I took 'damages' to mean too vehicles or property, as opposed to Injurys to occupants. And as a retired LEO I can't count how many head on collisions result in component intrusion into the passenger compartment. Lower extremity entrapment is very common in these cases. And it is not just the medical & property damage costs, I for one could not cover a multi-million dollar personal liability lawsuit resulting from modifying vehicular safety equipment resulting in injury or death. Having a little bigger tire just isn't worth it to me.

I understand and respect that decision. The dealer removed my front bars when they installed my Warn steel bumper. I bought 285/70-17 believing they would fit without removing the rear, but I had some rubbing and decided to pull them.

Admittedly if I didn't have the beastly Warn bumper and still had capacity for front bars, I'd have installed the Ready lift bars already. I don't want to buy a set of 4 with only 2 holes to fill (giggity).

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

The point of



I'm glad you asked. Here's a paper on the subject: https://www-esv.nhtsa.dot.gov/Proceedings/22/files/22ESV-000384.pdf

From the introduction: " Recent studies of frontal crashes identified several factors that are thought to lead to fatalities of restrained occupants in newer vehicles [Brumbelow and Zuby, 2009; Rudd et al., 2009]. The authors in both studies identified concentrated or limited engagement of frontal structures as one of the factors associated with increased risk to the occupants. These findings were consistent with those by Lindquist et al. [2004] who associated small overlap frontal crashes with a large percentage of fatalities in a Swedish study. As a result of the NHTSA study published by Bean et al. [2009], NHTSA stated its intent to further analyze low-offset and oblique frontal crashes in its Vehicle Safety Rulemaking & Research Priority Plan 2009-2011 published in November 2009 [NHTSA, 2009]."

You can read about the actual metrics in the paper.

I'm not seeing how that paper answers any of the questions I posed. What % of fatal collision have small-over lap protection is a small look a t a big picture.

If you have supporting stats from your extensive readings on the subject, or conclusions from the paper, I am eager to discuss.

Here's a start;

What % of collisions result in wheel to cab intrusion.

 

[JesseS]

I understand and respect that decision. The dealer removed my front bars when they installed my Warn steel bumper. I bought 285/70-17 believing they would fit without removing the rear, but I had some rubbing and decided to pull them.

Admittedly if I didn't have the beastly Warn bumper and still had capacity for front bars, I'd have installed the Ready lift bars already. I don't want to buy a set of 4 with only 2 holes to fill (giggity).

I wasn't aware that you had replaced that wimpy OEM bumper with the Warn, which due to it's size and construction should afford more occupant protection, at least in my mind as I haven't seen any type of test results. We have had a spat of wrong way drivers out here of late resulting in head-on crashes. Most all from DUI at night, even with all of the warning signs they still manage to get on the off ramp. And you are correct that in these cases there are few survivors, if any. Surface street wrong way or failure to yield accidents result mostly in injury.

 

[JesseS]

This is interesting if you haven't seen it. Note the position of the passenger front wheel.

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

I wasn't aware that you had replaced that wimpy OEM bumper with the Warn, which due to it's size and construction should afford more occupant protection, at least in my mind as I haven't seen any type of test results. We have had a spat of wrong way drivers out here of late resulting in head-on crashes. Most all from DUI at night, even with all of the warning signs they still manage to get on the off ramp. And you are correct that in these cases there are few survivors, if any. Surface street wrong way or failure to yield accidents result mostly in injury.

To your being sued point...

When I was 27 I had a crack head walk out in front of my car. Broken arm, leg, cracked skull, busted windshield, side window, mirror, etc. Multiple witnesses so I wasn't charged, but he had nothing including insurance. I had just bought and safety the car about 3 weeks prior, but it was only a couple grand and a beater for kicking around on weekends, I had a company commuter. I replaced the windshield, mirror and window, but didn't call insurance and didn't bother with the grill or body repairs.

Sometime later the insurance company calls, giving me the gears for not reporting it. I told them I asked the cop if I had to, he said not unless I was charged, and seeing as I was paying for repairs, I didn't bother. Anyway this guy, 67 at the time and never worked a day in his life. Drug addict and homeless his whole life, was suing me for losses. Suit claimed bad inexperienced driver, bad unsafe car, intoxicated due to drugs or lack of sleep, etc.

Mandatory Liability here is $1 million which I had, and all my insurance in order. He was suing for $2 million, which the 2nd million would have been my personal debt. Never had a job or any worth, 67 years old suing for $2 Million, lol.

My insurance company put the lawyers on it, I had to do interviews and depositions, but it ended a few years later, not sure if they gave him a cheque or not.

The law here is still $1million liability, but I increased mine to $5 million JIC.

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

This is interesting if you haven't seen it. Note the position of the passenger front wheel.

I have seen it, slow-mo crashes are fascinating.

Not to distract, but immovable object at the perfect angle. Hitting a parked car, bus shelter, tree, or anything other than a square concrete immovable object is not going to be nearly as catastrophic. Small over-lap head-ons can have the car locked together forcing full impact for both, but more often than not there is lateral deflection. That Ranger stops dead, the lights and cameras on that obstacle don't show any movement at all.

 

[docarter]

This is interesting if you haven't seen it. Note the position of the passenger front wheel.

The vehicles which do best tend to actually "slide" off of the barrier.

See:

 

[AdamHarris]

thats only a question that can be answered by those in the offices at Ford who made it.
anyone on here is just speculating, and to be honest, just because its not on the saskwatch or the raper, doesnt give you a free pass on the Ranger to remove them without consequence.
you can bet your bottom dollar its fueled by liability and cost calculations that they are willing to take. what about you?

Yes, yes I am.

So anyone purchasing a Sasquatch Bronco or a Raptor is being a selfish prick in regards to their loved one passengers?

Turns out a much higher percentage of Broncos are being ordered with the Squach package then expected and yet still no bars under it. Raptors, no bars, sell like hot cakes, many thousands out there.

Basically any single end user is a horse’s ass for removing his personal crash bars but Ford corporate gets a pass for leaving tens of thousands of them off? Still no explanation for this discrepancy.

 

[Ronbo]

To your being sued point...

When I was 27 I had a crack head walk out in front of my car. Broken arm, leg, cracked skull, busted windshield, side window, mirror, etc. Multiple witnesses so I wasn't charged, but he had nothing including insurance. I had just bought and safety the car about 3 weeks prior, but it was only a couple grand and a beater for kicking around on weekends, I had a company commuter. I replaced the windshield, mirror and window, but didn't call insurance and didn't bother with the grill or body repairs.

Sometime later the insurance company calls, giving me the gears for not reporting it. I told them I asked the cop if I had to, he said not unless I was charged, and seeing as I was paying for repairs, I didn't bother. Anyway this guy, 67 at the time and never worked a day in his life. Drug addict and homeless his whole life, was suing me for losses. Suit claimed bad inexperienced driver, bad unsafe car, intoxicated due to drugs or lack of sleep, etc.

Mandatory Liability here is $1 million which I had, and all my insurance in order. He was suing for $2 million, which the 2nd million would have been my personal debt. Never had a job or any worth, 67 years old suing for $2 Million, lol.

My insurance company put the lawyers on it, I had to do interviews and depositions, but it ended a few years later, not sure if they gave him a cheque or not.

The law here is still $1million liability, but I increased mine to $5 million JIC.

This just means that once they see you have $5m, they’ll just sue for $10m and settle for the $5m.

Yes, yes I am.

So anyone purchasing a Sasquatch Bronco or a Raptor is being a selfish prick in regards to their loved one passengers?

Turns out a much higher percentage of Broncos are being ordered with the Squach package then expected and yet still no bars under it. Raptors, no bars, sell like hot cakes, many thousands out there.

Basically any single end user is a horse’s ass for removing his personal crash bars but Ford corporate gets a pass for leaving tens of thousands of them off? Still no explanation for this discrepancy.

Not trying to take sides, but the term OEM will play a huge part in any suit involving injury claims. If the vehicle is sold by the manufacturer with certain OEM safety features, i.e., intrusion bars, and they are altered or removed, then the vehicle owner could be liable for altering the original equipment manufacturers safety equipment. If the manufacturer did not originally install a certain safety item, then the vehicle owner cannot be held responsible for that.

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

This just means that once they see you have $5m, they’ll just sue for $10m and settle for the $5m.

They can't see how much liability coverage I have, and no one looks at my Ranger and thinks "this guy must have money!" lol

 

[gwhalin]

I think everyone gets the potential negatives at this point. If I ever give any of you a ride I will make sure you sit in the back seat.

For sure don’t ride in my wife’s Colorado. It doesn’t have crash bars. In fact I don’t think any mid size truck does other than the Ranger. So don’t ride in any of those either.

What I still don’t understand though is why all the Karen’s chime in over and over to chide people for this. Maybe mind your own business? Anytime this comes up it is like reading NextDoor posts.

Sponsored