Wheel Spacers; Good or Bad?

[P. A. Schilke]

I've always been advised not to use anti-seize on wheel studs as they will act as lubricant and allow over torquing at the same ft lb number...correct me if I'm wrong...

I followed mounting instructions to use Locktite Red to bolt spacer to hub...I check a week later and they were still at 100ftlbs...

HI Sid,

You are correct...no lubricant nor antiseize. 100 ft lb. If you lube the chances are the increased clamp load and resultant wheel stud elongation potential is great.

What I would recommend is that the wheels be retorqued to 100 Ft Lbs and the vehicle driven for a brief period of time and the torque checked...if no change on any stud, then keep driving and checking until you gain confidence things are okay and torque does not fall off.

Have you ever seen a condition where all the studs sheared off and the wheel separated from the vehicle. They lugs did not fail all at once.... most likely one stud failed and caused an adjacent stud to fail which then resulted in another adjacent stud to fail...then with only 2 or 3 studs left the remaining studs give up the ghost and fail. So if if Mark sees one stud loose torque...it is time to replace all the studs as they have been damaged due to over torquing.

If I was still at Ford, I would have had my fastener engineer assess over torquing by one third for his experience with such events. I can just see him cringing at the situation...

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

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[txquailguy]

You're right. No anti-seize, oil, grease, nada on wheel studs or lug nuts.

I don't think Mark did based on the photo's. I just wanted to be sure he was aware of that though as his wording in his post was unclear, at least to me.

If he had used anti-sieze and 150 ft-lbs, I'm thinking the first stud would have shown him something was wrong..

No...I did not put any anti-seize on any studs or lug nuts. Only on the wheel spacer itself where there would be metal to metal contact with the hub of the wheel. FactionFab shows that on there installation video. The only thing I missed was the fact that was an install for an F-150 and thus the torquing of the wheel spacer nuts at 150 ft/lbs. I am typically very thorough...(honestly, I would not have thought the wheel studs on an F-150 would be different than a Ranger with the forces at play)
I had to cleanup each stud from the old loctite last night and took a very good look at each stud under a magnifying glass. I did not see one sign of an issue. No sign of twisting or discoloration. They looked like brand new wheel studs. Nothing that would suggest they are injured. They were all easy to get off and everything went back together perfect. Ya'll know I have a long commute and they did great heated up, rolling down I-25 this morning....no "Wheel Off Light" concerens...lol
I don't come in here and detail everything I do to my truck but I am very glad I said something with this install!!! I may look like a moron for over torquing my wheel spacer nuts but hey...I'm not proud! So glad to be able to live to drive another day
Thanks again to all concerned!!

 

[THLONE]

Well if the OP is still checking this post I think that txquailguy has answered the question.

 

[txquailguy]

Mark, do the lug nuts have full thread engagement on the spacer ? Doesnt look like it in the pics. Bret

Bret
I've got at least 1/4" of thread beyond the nut on the spacers. Thanks for looking out, I appreciate it and when I re-installed them I was sure to check that.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

No...I did not put any anti-seize on any studs or lug nuts. Only on the wheel spacer itself where there would be metal to metal contact with the hub of the wheel. FactionFab shows that on there installation video. The only thing I missed was the fact that was an install for an F-150 and thus the torquing of the wheel spacer nuts at 150 ft/lbs. I am typically very thorough...(honestly, I would not have thought the wheel studs on an F-150 would be different than a Ranger with the forces at play)
I had to cleanup each stud from the old loctite last night and took a very good look at each stud under a magnifying glass. I did not see one sign of an issue. No sign of twisting or discoloration. They looked like brand new wheel studs. Nothing that would suggest they are injured. They were all easy to get off and everything went back together perfect. Ya'll know I have a long commute and they did great heated up, rolling down I-25 this morning....no "Wheel Off Light" concerens...lol
I don't come in here and detail everything I do to my truck but I am very glad I said something with this install!!! I may look like a moron for over torquing my wheel spacer nuts but hey...I'm not proud! So glad to be able to live to drive another day
Thanks again to all concerned!!

Hi Mark,

Here's the deal...an external inspection will likely not show the damage, but steel remembers when you hurt it... Ever bent a coat hanger wire back and forth over and over until it snaps? Each cycle hurts the steel more and the steel remembers this until it snaps. That is why I suggested monitoring for torque fall off...it indicates something wrong before you have a serious problem. I really doubt you hurt the wheel studs, but you cannot be too careful with wheel attachment.

best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

 

[Trigganometry]

Hi Mark,

Here's the deal...an external inspection will likely not show the damage, but steel remembers when you hurt it... Ever bent a coat hanger wire back and forth over and over until it snaps? Each cycle hurts the steel more and the steel remembers this until it snaps. That is why I suggested monitoring for torque fall off...it indicates something wrong before you have a serious problem. I really doubt you hurt the wheel studs, but you cannot be too careful with wheel attachment.

best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

What the engineer said. Steel fatigue is not easily discernible. Once you harden it then it acts differently depending on grade of hardness. Once you stretch material beyond its intended specifications the predictably goes with it. Anything is possible from that point on.

Like the reason of hearing ’never reuse head bolts!’ Because they brake and I have heard the stories myself.

 

[Cape Cruiser]

Bret
I've got at least 1/4" of thread beyond the nut on the spacers. Thanks for looking out, I appreciate it and when I re-installed them I was sure to check that.

Good job Mark, keep an eye on torque and hopefully all is well. If they loose torque I would replace the studs. Good luck, Bret

 

[Fawnbuster]

HI Bill,

Yes, you will be creating a potential increase in the instance of wheel separation from the vehicle. Anytime you introduce a joint face and with a spacer you introduce two, you increase the chance of the joint working against its interface of which you have two. Brake disk to space and space to wheel. I have had my engineers test this on our Flat track machine time and time and the torque fall off is unfortunately highly likely. Fall off of Torque for wheel loosening...maybe, and maybe not. Also, spacers increase scrub radius beyond what is tested by Ford.

So you add spacers as many have done and state they have no problem...well maybe they do not recognize that the tire wear is reduced. When you deviate from OEM, you pays your $ and you takes your chances. I do not recommend wheel spacer unless the afermarket provider has documented via testing to Ford Standards that the spacers meet the durability criteria. Not sure, but last I looked at the Ford Performance offerings...spacers are not there. There is a tread here on these forums that I presented a back story of wheel separation on Ranger

You can find it here...
https://www.ranger5g.com/forum/threads/colored-lug-nuts.2184/page-2#post-53338

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

Phil, if a guy opted not to use spacers, what (if any) is the maximum offset rim a guy could buy for a wider stance (moving the rims out a very small amount like an inch or less per side) and staying wih the stock 18 inch tire size?

 

[SheepDogRain-Jar]

Phil, if a guy opted not to use spacers, what (if any) is the maximum offset rim a guy could buy for a wider stance (moving the rims out a very small amount like an inch or less per side) and staying wih the stock 18 inch tire size?

Good question!

 

[P. A. Schilke]

Phil, if a guy opted not to use spacers, what (if any) is the maximum offset rim a guy could buy for a wider stance (moving the rims out a very small amount like an inch or less per side) and staying wih the stock 18 inch tire size?

Hi Mike,

I will not make a recommendation of offset as I have no capability to assess a jounce/Rebound test which is part of Vehicle Dynamics responsibilities at Ford and do not want to have people use a parameter as recommended by Ford.... However, eliminating a joint in the system is directionally correct as each joint becomes a potential loosening issue. You still increase scrub radius, you just do not have a spacer. No one here has done a Jounce study on larger tires, wheel offset, etc. The process of doing a jounce study is pretty involved and this is where you find clearance issues to brake lines, ABS wiring and so forth. The truck is chained to the floor and the wheel on one side is forced up metal to metal with the jounce bumper removed. The steering is then rotated slowly from lock to lock and the clearances are measured. Then repeated for the other wheel, then the rear goes through the same process, speaking briefly about this process. Think of this is a max articulation study if you wish. Things are only done at curb weight for wheel tire package with crash bars in place or removed and so on.... When you change off set and tire size, you are in uncharted territory and over time if there are serious clearance issues in full jounce on one wheel...the info will likely bubble up during aggressive off roading over time. Most folks will be okay as they do not really "test" their trucks but who knows. I am sure Ford Performance has done the Jounce/rebound analysis on their level package with a specific tire size and wheel off set and anything with in these parameters is going to be okay...outside of these parameters...who knows? Time will tell.

I do not wish to discourage mods in the wheel tire arena, but you will not find...."But Phil said..and look what happened". IDK...

best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

 

[Fawnbuster]

Hi Mike,

I will not make a recommendation of offset as I have no capability to assess a jounce/Rebound test which is part of Vehicle Dynamics responsibilities at Ford and do not want to have people use a parameter as recommended by Ford.... However, eliminating a joint in the system is directionally correct as each joint becomes a potential loosening issue. You still increase scrub radius, you just do not have a spacer. No one here has done a Jounce study on larger tires, wheel offset, etc. The process of doing a jounce study is pretty involved and this is where you find clearance issues to brake lines, ABS wiring and so forth. The truck is chained to the floor and the wheel on one side is forced up metal to metal with the jounce bumper removed. The steering is then rotated slowly from lock to lock and the clearances are measured. Then repeated for the other wheel, then the rear goes through the same process, speaking briefly about this process. Think of this is a max articulation study if you wish. Things are only done at curb weight for wheel tire package with crash bars in place or removed and so on.... When you change off set and tire size, you are in uncharted territory and over time if there are serious clearance issues in full jounce on one wheel...the info will likely bubble up during aggressive off roading over time. Most folks will be okay as they do not really "test" their trucks but who knows. I am sure Ford Performance has done the Jounce/rebound analysis on their level package with a specific tire size and wheel off set and anything with in these parameters is going to be okay...outside of these parameters...who knows? Time will tell.

I do not wish to discourage mods in the wheel tire arena, but you will not find...."But Phil said..and look what happened". IDK...

best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

Sorry Phil I wasn't trying to pin you into a corner for any reason, I like many others trust your input and opinions a great deal. I agree that removing an extra joint (spacer) is one less thing to vibrate and fail.
Thank you for the explanation!

 

[P. A. Schilke]

Sorry Phil I wasn't trying to pin you into a corner for any reason, I like many others trust your input and opinions a great deal. I agree that removing an extra joint (spacer) is one less thing to vibrate and fail.
Thank you for the explanation!

Hi Mike,

Understand...I just want to maybe explain in more detail what goes into testing a wheel/tire combination prior to release for production. It is not bolt on....sitting in the parking lot...do a lock to lock pulling forward and backward and not noting any rubbing so you are good to go.... It is a much more complicated and time consuming process to evaluate the entire space a tire/wheel might occupy during the life of a vehicle, not just static at curb height.

Just a bit of a back story...we did not always use the most sophisticated equipment for dynamic measurements. There were times when we used simple clay. Stick a wad on a component...drive or cycle the truck...pull the smashed clay down and measure the thickness....Voila! We have the clearance. We did this on the prototype of the Ranger Edge...Driveshaft to frame crossmember which we knew was close...but how close...So we did a quick and dirty test...clayed the crossmember in the area of the driveshaft. Removed the rear shocks and the jounce bumpers and drove the vehicle over various test surfaces, measured the clay and retooled the crossmember to provide more than the ¼" clearance when spec calls for ¾" clearance between a rotating member and a static member...Driveshaft to frame crossmember....

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

 

[Fawnbuster]

Hi Mike,

Understand...I just want to maybe explain in more detail what goes into testing a wheel/tire combination prior to release for production. It is not bolt on....sitting in the parking lot...do a lock to lock pulling forward and backward and not noting any rubbing so you are good to go.... It is a much more complicated and time consuming process to evaluate the entire space a tire/wheel might occupy during the life of a vehicle, not just static at curb height.

Just a bit of a back story...we did not always use the most sophisticated equipment for dynamic measurements. There were times when we used simple clay. Stick a wad on a component...drive or cycle the truck...pull the smashed clay down and measure the thickness....Voila! We have the clearance. We did this on the prototype of the Ranger Edge...Driveshaft to frame crossmember which we knew was close...but how close...So we did a quick and dirty test...clayed the crossmember in the area of the driveshaft. Removed the rear shocks and the jounce bumpers and drove the vehicle over various test surfaces, measured the clay and retooled the crossmember to provide more than the ¼" clearance when spec calls for ¾" clearance between a rotating member and a static member...Driveshaft to frame crossmember....

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

We are on the same page. I started our EVO program and advanced program, we evaluated everyones vehicle before they drove the courses and found mechanical flaws here and there. I tested some non-pursuit rated tires the mechanic tried to slip in and with my report was able to get them to switch back to the correct tires. Everything has an equal and opposite reaction and there's always a ripple effect.

This is the 1st time since high school that I've bought new wheels, that time I couldn't research, didn't know I should being a kid and trusted a salesman saying "oh those tires and rims will fit!" They rubbed Badly before I even left the lot. I had them put the oem wheels back on the front so I could get home. They wanted to cut the crap out of my wheel wells on a new truck. Eventually I had to pay for a 2 inch body lift and crank up the torsion bars. That strain then broke the rag joint twice resulting in a complete steering failure, luckily each time I didn't crash. After that I had a 4x4 shop weld in a steering box from a full size truck and fixed that issue.

I would rather have a safe distance and no rub on or off road and hopefully a bit wider stance without more than normal component wear on the truck.

 

[txquailguy]

Good job Mark, keep an eye on torque and hopefully all is well. If they loose torque I would replace the studs. Good luck, Bret

Thanks Bret....I will be watching and checking them closely.....

Just an observation for the group about these new wheel spacers. I only put the anti-seize on by recommendation of FactionFab. If you watch their video where I mistook the 150 ft/lbs of bolt torque, they recommend it due to the Aluminum/Steel interface. So as far as separation goes, in the couple of days that I had the spacers on this weekend and then took them off to retorque, they had already bonded together pretty well. I had to use a wedge to pop the spacer off of two wheels. The other two I had to give a couple of good whacks with the rubber mallet to get them to break loose.
Bottom line, I think if you invest in good quality spacers and INSTALL THEM CORRECTLY , you will have no problems. Especially if you check the torque on them occasionally.
I see folks riding around in these big trucks with wheel spacers all the time and have not noticed a rash of "wheel off conditions" happening. Not that it doesn't...I actually saw someone lose a wheel like that here locally. They were in a slow speed turn going into a shop and all the sudden their wheel and tire is bouncing down the street. It was a miracle that the tire did not hit someone's vehicle, it hit a brick building wall. Anyway, I surely have not been babying my Ranger since installing the spacers. I guess time will tell but I'm more worried about my taxes being raised under our new Pres than whether my wheels are going to come off...

BTW...not trying to be political....just real

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