Wait until we go full EV

[RedlandRanger]

Doesn't mean they're still all that great for the atmosphere and the mining alone is extremely destructive to local ecosystems. Then you have the dispel of them. Maybe someday it'll be better but it's not right now.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...environment-than-gas-powered-cars/ar-AA13kljD

I think (hope) that technology advances will negate some of these issues going forward. I know there have been some advances in recycling lithium batteries recently that help, but lithium does not appear to be the "end state" for battery technology.

Everything is a trade off and I think the best we can do is attempt to minimize the bad as much as possible. I think we are in for a bumpy ride as things transition from ICEs to BVs to whatever is next (hydrogen? fusion?)

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[Wes Siler]

I think it's also important to note here, that purely from the perspective of an enthusiast, EVs are the faster, more exciting vehicles.

This year I got to drive both the Hummer EV and Raptor R (great time to be a truck guy!), And after the Hummer, the 700bhp Raptor honestly felt underwhelming in all regards. And they're about the same price.

 

[AzScorpion]

I think (hope) that technology advances will negate some of these issues going forward. I know there have been some advances in recycling lithium batteries recently that help, but lithium does not appear to be the "end state" for battery technology.

Everything is a trade off and I think the best we can do is attempt to minimize the bad as much as possible. I think we are in for a bumpy ride as things transition from ICEs to BVs to whatever is next (hydrogen? fusion?)

I agree but right now it's lithium batteries and many still think these are still better for our planet than ICE vehicles. My only complaint is there's so much misinformation out there and those who are dead set on EV's need to open their eyes as they're not all that environmentally friendly. Sure as things progress and new tech evolves they will be but they're far from it right now.

Another good article that lays it all out not he pros/cons.

https://xkestrel.com/4949/opinions/...rse-than-gasoline-cars-in-every-possible-way/

 

[Wes Siler]

I agree but right now it's lithium batteries and many still think these are still better for our planet than ICE vehicles. My only complaint is there's so much misinformation out there and those who are dead set on EV's need to open their eyes as they're not all that environmentally friendly. Sure as things progress and new tech evolves they will be but they're far from it right now.

Another good article that lays it all out not he pros/cons.

https://xkestrel.com/4949/opinions/...rse-than-gasoline-cars-in-every-possible-way/

Again with a really poor quality source. Use real info from real publications please.

 

[AzScorpion]

Again with a really poor quality source. Use real info from real publications please.

So your "friend" is a quality source? Got it!

 

[dtech]

I had read somewhere long ago that even in the great world wars combatants in some arenas enjoyed a temporary truce on Xmas before going back to the business of wiping each other off the face of the earth.
May a suggest the same for the EV vs ICE debates, a single day of peace and harmony , then back to the amicable disagreements and continuing debate.

Peace on earth and on the roadways, happy motoring whatever you choose to drive, even if it's one of these atrocities:

 

[Wes Siler]

So your "friend" is a quality source? Got it!

An article published in the largest car magazine, written by the most reputable journalist currently working in that space, citing peer reviewed science, can be considered real information.

 

[MountainGoat]

It's like hotel/motels.
In the pioneer days, a room was 30-50¢ a night. you often shared a bed with a complete stranger, a bathtub down the hall, chamber pot (bed pan) and outdoor biffy. Back when Motel 6 actually charged $6 for a room, there was no TV, A/C, coffee maker, in-room phone, most had bathtub only no shower. Then as the more expensive chains started adding these amenities, the budget chains followed suit.

Standards keep rising

New upper income condo and apartment buildings are being built with planned future charging infrastructure or actual hardware, and the budget places will eventually follow suit. Today, a Level 2 commercial grade charger costs between $1200-6000 plus installation. A Level 3 DC fast charger runs $30,000-80,000; costs are coming down, but still expensive. But today, it would be unthinkable to build or remodel an apartment without air conditioning, cable or fiber optic, shower, etc. All these things came about as the standard of living rose. The landlord with multiple level 2 chargers will be able to command higher rents than the landlord across the street without, until they also install chargers.

This is something that's going to be in luxo condos but we still have apartment fires in NY like every other day. Many are very run down even in KC. Don't expect to see charging stations at these any time this century. Or maybe they put em in, landlord cheaps out and they cause another apartment fire.

 

[RedlandRanger]

I agree but right now it's lithium batteries and many still think these are still better for our planet than ICE vehicles. My only complaint is there's so much misinformation out there and those who are dead set on EV's need to open their eyes as they're not all that environmentally friendly. Sure as things progress and new tech evolves they will be but they're far from it right now.

Another good article that lays it all out not he pros/cons.

https://xkestrel.com/4949/opinions/...rse-than-gasoline-cars-in-every-possible-way/

Interesting, but I found that article rather slanted. I looked at one of his sources, and he eliminated one VERY important fact (bolded below):

A mid-priced internal combustion car that gets 33 miles per gallon would cost $8.58 in overall costs to drive 100 miles at $2.81 a gallon, the study found. But a mid-priced EV, such as Chevrolet Bolt, Nissan Leaf or a Tesla Model 3, would cost $12.95 to drive 100 miles in terms of costs that include recharging the vehicle using mostly a commercial charger.

He neglected to include the fact that the costs were ONLY when you used commercial chargers (which can, and in many cases are, significantly more expensive than residential charging). To be balanced, different tiers should have been presented - like how much it would be if you ONLY did residential charging - the opposite end of the spectrum - and maybe a 50/50 split. He was clearly trying to tell a story of why EVs are bad, so painted them in the worst possible light. What he said was not false, but it did not include some very important information as to how the information was gleaned. I call that "spin".

Again, I struggle with this because there is very little factual information that isn't trying to "tell a story" - one way or the other. I'd like to see facts and decide for myself. I felt like the article Wes posted was pretty good honestly. Information backed up by detailed links from reputable sources.

As Mark Twain used to say "there are lies, damn lies and statistics". Maybe we could add "and spin" to that statement.

 

[AzScorpion]

Interesting, but I found that article rather slanted. I looked at one of his sources, and he eliminated one VERY important fact (bolded below):



He neglected to include the fact that the costs were ONLY when you used commercial chargers (which can, and in many cases are, significantly more expensive than residential charging). To be balanced, different tiers should have been presented - like how much it would be if you ONLY did residential charging - the opposite end of the spectrum - and maybe a 50/50 split. He was clearly trying to tell a story of why EVs are bad, so painted them in the worst possible light. What he said was not false, but it did not include some very important information as to how the information was gleaned. I call that "spin".

Again, I struggle with this because there is very little factual information that isn't trying to "tell a story" - one way or the other. I'd like to see facts and decide for myself. I felt like the article Wes posted was pretty good honestly. Information backed up by detailed links from reputable sources.

As Mark Twain used to say "there are lies, damn lies and statistics". Maybe we could add "and spin" to that statement.

You're right, every article can be spun. So let's spin this.

What they don't tell you is how expensive electricity will be once the majority of people are driving them. You'll now be taking away all the gas tax from ICE vehicles so now where is the money going to come from for roads, bridges and overall infrastructure? ? Now factor in the billions it'll cost to revamp the entire US grid from coast to coast. I'm guessing that $5.00/gal everyone was complaining about last summer will look pretty darn good at some point.

 

[Trigganometry]

I hear these arguments all the time - one person says EVs are half the emissions (total) than ICE, and someone else comes back and says they are higher. Where are you getting these figures? I'd love to take a look at how those figures are computed in detail.

As usual, I always like to "follow the money" as decisions are rarely made in what is the best interest - they are usually made to make someone money.

And as far as "let the market figure it out" - that is all well and good, but the fossil fuel industry has gotten billions of dollars in subsidies for years - so that argument doesn't really pan out, IMO. At some point, things will normalize - most likely somewhere in between what is being proposed now and where we are today.

Pretty fair presentation. They don’t touch on water use at all though. That should be rolled into the data. EV manufacturing takes about 250,000 gallons of water per vehicle during their creation.
https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-offsets-credits/carbon-footprint-of-electric-cars-vs-gasoline/

Now that PHEV Ranger sure looks more enticing by the day!

 

[MountainGoat]

Interesting, but I found that article rather slanted. I looked at one of his sources, and he eliminated one VERY important fact (bolded below):



He neglected to include the fact that the costs were ONLY when you used commercial chargers (which can, and in many cases are, significantly more expensive than residential charging). To be balanced, different tiers should have been presented - like how much it would be if you ONLY did residential charging - the opposite end of the spectrum - and maybe a 50/50 split. He was clearly trying to tell a story of why EVs are bad, so painted them in the worst possible light. What he said was not false, but it did not include some very important information as to how the information was gleaned. I call that "spin".

Again, I struggle with this because there is very little factual information that isn't trying to "tell a story" - one way or the other. I'd like to see facts and decide for myself. I felt like the article Wes posted was pretty good honestly. Information backed up by detailed links from reputable sources.

As Mark Twain used to say "there are lies, damn lies and statistics". Maybe we could add "and spin" to that statement.

Who funded the study? In this case Mr Yale is funded by the...Joint Global Change Research Institute. Lol.

Or maybe I'm wrong and EVs may be great! Every Ph.D says they are after all. I'll wait and see how it pans out, like I did with the vax.

 

[RedlandRanger]

You're right, every article can be spun. So let's spin this.

What they don't tell you is how expensive electricity will be once the majority of people are driving them. You'll now be taking away all the gas tax from ICE vehicles so now where is the money going to come from for roads, bridges and overall infrastructure? ? Now factor in the billions it'll cost to revamp the entire US grid from coast to coast. I'm guessing that $5.00/gal everyone was complaining about last summer will look pretty darn good at some point.

True enough - but you are assuming gas prices won't go up either - and my guess is that they will. Maybe more than the cost of electricity - but who really knows. One thing I think is certain - no matter what kind of energy you use (gas or electric) the cost is going to continue to go up.

And yes, I'm not advocating for total EVs at all - the electric grid will blow up if we truly did that, without billions and billions in investment. Its a big reason why I like the PHEV option as a really good, transition plan. It kind of gives you the best of both ICE and BV in one package.

I still think the "final" answer will be something different than BVs or ICE.

 

[Sharky]

I will consider an EV when the military goes to all electric tanks, ships & planes.
that will be the time when EV`s are totally reliable
until then dont try to push an EV on me.

 

[RedlandRanger]

Pretty fair presentation. They don’t touch on water use at all though. That should be rolled into the data. EV manufacturing takes about 250,000 gallons of water per vehicle during their creation.
https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-offsets-credits/carbon-footprint-of-electric-cars-vs-gasoline/

Now that PHEV Ranger sure looks more enticing by the day!

That was a good article. I kept wondering which angle they were arguing, which to me indicates less bias. It had lots of good info it it. One thing it didn't address however was Dave's concern about the power grid - that is a significant issue that seems to be kind of dismissed or "the market will fix it" (which I don't think is the case due to the significant investment that will be required).

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