Wait until we go full EV

[BettaRanga]

I would not want to pull power off of my vehicle.

And maybe substantially faster to some. Some of us have higher standards of power for our other vehicles.

It all sounds great, but there will be a cost regardless and there are still a lot of places that it will not fit for everyone. The forcing of it via mandates is about equivalent to the COVID BS... Let it happen when people choose the better product.

The government always knows what is best for you. Nod, smile, and only charge your EV when allowed. Science!

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[HenryMac]

I would not want to pull power off of my vehicle.

And maybe substantially faster to some. Some of us have higher standards of power for our other vehicles.

It all sounds great, but there will be a cost regardless and there are still a lot of places that it will not fit for everyone. The forcing of it via mandates is about equivalent to the COVID BS... Let it happen when people choose the better product.

Exactly. If they are so great, why am I and my fellow taxpayers paying for the subsidies, so folks wealthier than me can buy them?

If they are truly better, let capitalism prove that.

And another thing, some of us live out in the sticks. To get to a Home Depot is a 1-1/2 hour trip. So they just aren't practical for everybody. If it's good for you great. You do you.

Don't give me no lines, and keep your toxic battery packs to yourself.

 

[AzScorpion]

So another grid is strained and asked customers to "cut back" on their electricity use. I love how they just think it's ok for people to freeze in the winter and sweat to death in the summer yet they keep trying to force these EV's down our throats. I have no problem with this who WANT to but one just don't tell me I NEED to buy one.

For the record I have solar on my house (which does 100%) and can charge one for free. So an EV would be more beneficial than and ICE vehicle but I still don't want one, at least right now. Like Al I'm waiting to see if/when the next Gen Ranger comes out with a PHEV version. I think they should be pushing this more as you have a lot more flexibility with them and many (like myself) drive short distances.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/eastern-us-power-grid-orders-012619072.html

PJM, a vast electric grid that stretches from Illinois to New Jersey, has declared a rare, system-wide emergency and is ordering some customers to curtail demand as a vast winter storm sends power use soaring.

Grid operator PJM Interconnection LLC declared a Stage 2 emergency, which requires customers across its entire system who’ve agreed to curtail power during times of extreme need to do so. This is one of the last measures a grid manager can take to avoid a Stage 3 emergency, which has historically meant rolling blackouts are imminent or already in effect. Such widespread cutoffs would be devastating for as many as 65 million people relying on the grid for power just as an enormous winter storm batters swaths of US and Canada.

 

[BettaRanga]

So another grid is strained and asked customers to "cut back" on their electricity use. I love how they just think it's ok for people to freeze in the winter and sweat to death in the summer yet they keep trying to force these EV's down our throats. I have no problem with this who WANT to but one just don't tell me I NEED to buy one.

For the record I have solar on my house (which does 100%) and can charge one for free. So an EV would be more beneficial than and ICE vehicle but I still don't want one, at least right now. Like Al I'm waiting to see if/when the next Gen Ranger comes out with a PHEV version. I think they should be pushing this more as you have a lot more flexibility with them and many (like myself) drive short distances.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/eastern-us-power-grid-orders-012619072.html

Right now in NC.

 

[Motorpsychology]

California said the same during the heat of summer,
" The same week Governor Newsom announced new gas powered car sales will cease in a decade, he also reminded us due to a heat wave not to plug your current electric car in. Yeah folks, we are banning new gas powered cars, in favor of more enviro-friendly electric ones, but please do not charge it while we grapple with an energy crisis."

And I think Switzerland had the same demands this winter:
Switzerland Plans to Restrict the Use of Electric Cars During the Winter Energy Crisis



Let me get this straight; Xcel Energy, an electricity generator/provider/seller is pushing EV's hard? No conflicts there.

No conflict at all. The result of wise planning and and investing prudently for the future going back to the 50's (then NSP) when they built one of the first nuke plants in the nation. Today the overarching paradigm is to get energy production and use to zero carbon. They have abundant capability now and adding more all the time. Xcel rates are among the lowest in the nation, partly because they can sell carbon credits and the electricity itself to other grids.

 

[Motorpsychology]

Everyone who makes this argument forgets about the plebs that can't afford it or live in apartments and HOAs by choice or necessity. Of course if you turn your house into your own personal solar farm it makes sense to have an EV. What percentage of people actually do this? The push is not "guy who will never need to relocate for work and can afford a complete solar package and EV" to go electric, it's every person. And the kind of person that will buy into the hype isn't smart enough to see it's not going to work out for them.

It's like hotel/motels.
In the pioneer days, a room was 30-50¢ a night. you often shared a bed with a complete stranger, a bathtub down the hall, chamber pot (bed pan) and outdoor biffy. Back when Motel 6 actually charged $6 for a room, there was no TV, A/C, coffee maker, in-room phone, most had bathtub only no shower. Then as the more expensive chains started adding these amenities, the budget chains followed suit.

Standards keep rising

New upper income condo and apartment buildings are being built with planned future charging infrastructure or actual hardware, and the budget places will eventually follow suit. Today, a Level 2 commercial grade charger costs between $1200-6000 plus installation. A Level 3 DC fast charger runs $30,000-80,000; costs are coming down, but still expensive. But today, it would be unthinkable to build or remodel an apartment without air conditioning, cable or fiber optic, shower, etc. All these things came about as the standard of living rose. The landlord with multiple level 2 chargers will be able to command higher rents than the landlord across the street without, until they also install chargers.

 

[BettaRanga]

It's like hotel/motels.
In the pioneer days, a room was 30-50¢ a night. you often shared a bed with a complete stranger, a bathtub down the hall, chamber pot (bed pan) and outdoor biffy. Back when Motel 6 actually charged $6 for a room, there was no TV, A/C, coffee maker, in-room phone, most had bathtub only no shower. Then as the more expensive chains started adding these amenities, the budget chains followed suit.

Standards keep rising

New upper income condo and apartment buildings are being built with planned future charging infrastructure or actual hardware, and the budget places will eventually follow suit. Today, a Level 2 commercial grade charger costs between $1200-6000 plus installation. A Level 3 DC fast charger runs $30,000-80,000; costs are coming down, but still expensive. But today, it would be unthinkable to build or remodel an apartment without air conditioning, cable or fiber optic, shower, etc. All these things came about as the standard of living rose. The landlord with multiple level 2 chargers will be able to command higher rents than the landlord across the street without, until they also install chargers.

I don’t think most would disagree with you here that the infrastructure and affordability could get there, but the problem is that it’s being mandated under the guise of saving the planet and subsidized by taxes aka borrowed money.

Let it happen naturally, and we’ll see if EV beats ICE. Don’t force me to pay for for someone else’s EV - it’s not much different from student loans in this regard.

 

[dtech]

I don’t think most would disagree with you here that the infrastructure and affordability could get there, but the problem is that it’s being mandated under the guise of saving the planet and subsidized by taxes aka borrowed money.

Let it happen naturally, and we’ll see if EV beats ICE. Don’t force me to pay for for someone else’s EV - it’s not much different from student loans in this regard.

so what spending hasn't been subsidized by taxes and borrowing in the USA, it is what keeps the country humming along like a well oiled machine. EV incentives just a little tiddlywink ontop of that $32T pile or is now $33T ?

 

[Dgc333]

All with a car that will have less than half the cradle to grave emissions of an equivalent ICE vehicle, and which will be substantially faster and better to drive.

When you factor in all the emissions dumped into the atmosphere mining the lithium and other chemicals, plus the emissions dumped into the atmosphere processing the chemicals into batteries, the cradle to grave emissions for an EV are 20% to 30% higher than an ICE vehicle.

 

[RedlandRanger]

When you factor in all the emissions dumped into the atmosphere mining the lithium and other chemicals, plus the emissions dumped into the atmosphere processing the chemicals into batteries, the cradle to grave emissions for an EV are 20% to 30% higher than an ICE vehicle.

I hear these arguments all the time - one person says EVs are half the emissions (total) than ICE, and someone else comes back and says they are higher. Where are you getting these figures? I'd love to take a look at how those figures are computed in detail.

As usual, I always like to "follow the money" as decisions are rarely made in what is the best interest - they are usually made to make someone money.

And as far as "let the market figure it out" - that is all well and good, but the fossil fuel industry has gotten billions of dollars in subsidies for years - so that argument doesn't really pan out, IMO. At some point, things will normalize - most likely somewhere in between what is being proposed now and where we are today.

 

[Wes Siler]

When you factor in all the emissions dumped into the atmosphere mining the lithium and other chemicals, plus the emissions dumped into the atmosphere processing the chemicals into batteries, the cradle to grave emissions for an EV are 20% to 30% higher than an ICE vehicle.

That's untrue. I'd encourage you to sincerely evaluate the quality and truthfulness of the information sources you consume, if you're receiving lies like that.

 

[Wes Siler]

I hear these arguments all the time - one person says EVs are half the emissions (total) than ICE, and someone else comes back and says they are higher. Where are you getting these figures? I'd love to take a look at how those figures are computed in detail.

As usual, I always like to "follow the money" as decisions are rarely made in what is the best interest - they are usually made to make someone money.

And as far as "let the market figure it out" - that is all well and good, but the fossil fuel industry has gotten billions of dollars in subsidies for years - so that argument doesn't really pan out, IMO. At some point, things will normalize - most likely somewhere in between what is being proposed now and where we are today.

I hear these arguments all the time - one person says EVs are half the emissions (total) than ICE, and someone else comes back and says they are higher. Where are you getting these figures? I'd love to take a look at how those figures are computed in detail.

As usual, I always like to "follow the money" as decisions are rarely made in what is the best interest - they are usually made to make someone money.

And as far as "let the market figure it out" - that is all well and good, but the fossil fuel industry has gotten billions of dollars in subsidies for years - so that argument doesn't really pan out, IMO. At some point, things will normalize - most likely somewhere in between what is being proposed now and where we are today.

This explainer from my buddy Jonny is as good as it gets. This debate has been settled for ages.

https://www-motortrend-com.cdn.ampp...t-electric-cars-ad-why-you-are-being-lied-to/

 

[Dgc333]

That's untrue. I'd encourage you to sincerely evaluate the quality and truthfulness of the information sources you consume, if you're receiving lies like that.

Well I have to admit I was wrong. Did some searching and while the CO2 impact of an EV is higher to manufacture it is made up relatively shortly with essentially zero emission during use.

 

[AzScorpion]

This explainer from my buddy Jonny is as good as it gets. This debate has been settled for ages.

https://www-motortrend-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-cars-ad-why-you-are-being-lied-to/amp/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#amp_tf=From %1$s&aoh=16719073360970&referrer=https://www.google.com&ampshare=https://www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-cars-ad-why-you-are-being-lied-to/

Doesn't mean they're still all that great for the atmosphere and the mining alone is extremely destructive to local ecosystems. Then you have the dispel of them. Maybe someday it'll be better but it's not right now.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...environment-than-gas-powered-cars/ar-AA13kljD

Interestingly, a new study conducted by the University of Michigan has shown that electric vehicles are actually less environmentally efficient when it comes time to dispose of them. The primary cause is the batteries that power the cars. As the batteries break down and erode over time, they admit more greenhouse gases than a decomposing internal combustion engine would.

While this is concerning, and certainly will give those against the transition to electric vehicles more ammunition to resist the change, that same University of Michigan study also found that the emissions that will inevitably be released at the end of an electric vehicle's lifecycle are negated by simply driving the car for between 1.4-1.9 years depending on if its a sedan or SUV.


Additionally, lithium-ion batteries, the ones used in electric vehicles, are not a sustainable solution in the long term. This is because mining for lithium comes with its own environmental pitfalls. Specifically, the mining process is extremely destructive to local ecosystems where the mining occurs.

 

[Wes Siler]

Well I have to admit I was wrong. Did some searching and while the CO2 impact of an EV is higher to manufacture it is made up relatively shortly with essentially zero emission during use.

I'm proud of you for being open to real information.

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