One Piece Driveshaft

[Shawn at Tom Wood's]

In response to a couple recent posts:

1. @Muddy Fenders I think the way to do it would be to get the 2-part urethane mix, mix it up, and use something like this to pour it in around the cavity on the backside of the stock rubber bushing. Then let that harden. You'd have to remove the shaft and lean it up against a wall or something so that you can stand it on its end to fill the bushing and leave it long enough for the urethane to dry/cure. This would be an irreversible modification to the stock shaft though.
2. About the low cost of the stock shafts. I can buy a new stock shaft (retail) for about the same price as I can buy the parts (wholesale) to build a one-piece shaft. The stock two-piece obviously uses more parts and more parts should mean more expense. But it doesn't, so to me that says something about the initial cost and correlated quality of the parts being used in the stock shafts. I'm not saying the price is conclusive proof that the stock shafts are built cheaply but there is certainly some substance to this idea.
3. @Fitzmotor, about the stock shafts being out of phase. First, let me be clear that while this is not the first time anyone has intentionally done this it is definitely not common nor standard practice. I see it as a hail mary attempt to fix a problem that you can't fix through conventional methods and standards. While I'm hesitant to say "This is why they did it." because I'm not so arrogant that I think I can definitively explain motive and intention of anyone other than myself, I can make some pretty good educated guesses. My understanding of the intentionally out of phase thing is this: Think of two drumsticks on a drum. If you are hitting both sticks against the drum at the same time, every 1 and 3 count, the intensity (loudness) of the drum will be greater than it would be if you were alternating drum sticks and hitting one at a time every 1,2,3,4 count. Vibrations, shudders, noises, are all sort of similar. Noises are just vibrations that travel through the air and our ears pick up. So using this same logic, the wavelength, or frequency of the oscillation of the joints has been intentionally interrupted so that instead of the joints all oscillating/shuddering/vibrating in sync, which would increase the intensity, they have been de-synchronized to reduce intensity. Normally, and in almost every other drive shaft in existence, the joints will be all aligned in phase so that while one joint is speeding up the other is slowing down which will cause one's joint oscillation to cancel out the other's. Either because of the fact that this shaft has 3 joints and it is not possible to get all 3 joints properly synchronized or more likely because reality didn't meet expectations, that the computer simulation of what would work only worked in the computer which forced Ford or Spicer to use an uncommonly used trick (putting the joints out of phase) to try and fix the vibration that the shafts were having. Again, this is just my theory as to why they made the shafts this way, as I was not part of the discussion at Ford or Spicer but that's how the concept is generally understood by us in the drive shaft industry.

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[AzScorpion]

*boom

And with that, Phil walks away from R5G never to be seen again.

Listen, I like Phil a lot even if his Ranger experience is from previous generations. If some of you don't like his advice, don't solicit it. The digs and jabs are unwarranted. Walk away and do your thing quietly.
He doesn't have to be here for anyone but himself, but people seem to think he's their bitch for answers.

Well it's a forum and a discussion board. Instead of coming and and throwing blanket statements out it would've really helped if he had a civil discussion with Shawn about this. It would benefit many on here and that's the whole idea of this forum. Let's face it no one likes to be criticized or think something they did (or help design) is wrong or faulty but nothing in life is foolproof. I have no dog in this fight as mine is smooth but someday it might not be. It'd be nice to hear BOTH sides and maybe there's a tweak or so that's needed or maybe not.

I don't see any "digs or jabs" that are insulting to Phil. Just others who wish he'd elaborate more from his past expertise instead of calling those who purchased this a fool. Personally I feel that's a dig on the members here who needed and found a solution to their problems.

 

[The Last Ranger]

In response to a couple recent posts:

1. @Muddy Fenders I think the way to do it would be to get the 2-part urethane mix, mix it up, and use something like this to pour it in around the cavity on the backside of the stock rubber bushing. Then let that harden. You'd have to remove the shaft and lean it up against a wall or something so that you can stand it on its end to fill the bushing and leave it long enough for the urethane to dry/cure. This would be an irreversible modification to the stock shaft though.
2. About the low cost of the stock shafts. I can buy a new stock shaft (retail) for about the same price as I can buy the parts (wholesale) to build a one-piece shaft. The stock two-piece obviously uses more parts and more parts should mean more expense. But it doesn't, so to me that says something about the initial cost and correlated quality of the parts being used in the stock shafts. I'm not saying the price is conclusive proof that the stock shafts are built cheaply but there is certainly some substance to this idea.
3. @Fitzmotor, about the stock shafts being out of phase. First, let me be clear that while this is not the first time anyone has intentionally done this it is definitely not common nor standard practice. I see it as a hail mary attempt to fix a problem that you can't fix through conventional methods and standards. While I'm hesitant to say "This is why they did it." because I'm not so arrogant that I think I can definitively explain motive and intention of anyone other than myself, I can make some pretty good educated guesses. My understanding of the intentionally out of phase thing is this: Think of two drumsticks on a drum. If you are hitting both sticks against the drum at the same time, every 1 and 3 count, the intensity (loudness) of the drum will be greater than it would be if you were alternating drum sticks and hitting one at a time every 1,2,3,4 count. Vibrations, shudders, noises, are all sort of similar. Noises are just vibrations that travel through the air and our ears pick up. So using this same logic, the wavelength, or frequency of the oscillation of the joints has been intentionally interrupted so that instead of the joints all oscillating/shuddering/vibrating in sync, which would increase the intensity, they have been de-synchronized to reduce intensity. Normally, and in almost every other drive shaft in existence, the joints will be all aligned in phase so that while one joint is speeding up the other is slowing down which will cause one's joint oscillation to cancel out the other's. Either because of the fact that this shaft has 3 joints and it is not possible to get all 3 joints properly synchronized or more likely because reality didn't meet expectations, that the computer simulation of what would work only worked in the computer which forced Ford or Spicer to use an uncommonly used trick (putting the joints out of phase) to try and fix the vibration that the shafts were having. Again, this is just my theory as to why they made the shafts this way, as I was not part of the discussion at Ford or Spicer but that's how the concept is generally understood by us in the drive shaft industry.

For polyurethane you could use PL S30 10 fl. oz. Black Polyurethane Roof and Flashing Sealant . It comes in caulking tubes and I used it on my deteriating chasis bushings and it worked well

In response to a couple recent posts:

1. @Muddy Fenders I think the way to do it would be to get the 2-part urethane mix, mix it up, and use something like this to pour it in around the cavity on the backside of the stock rubber bushing. Then let that harden. You'd have to remove the shaft and lean it up against a wall or something so that you can stand it on its end to fill the bushing and leave it long enough for the urethane to dry/cure. This would be an irreversible modification to the stock shaft though.
2. About the low cost of the stock shafts. I can buy a new stock shaft (retail) for about the same price as I can buy the parts (wholesale) to build a one-piece shaft. The stock two-piece obviously uses more parts and more parts should mean more expense. But it doesn't, so to me that says something about the initial cost and correlated quality of the parts being used in the stock shafts. I'm not saying the price is conclusive proof that the stock shafts are built cheaply but there is certainly some substance to this idea.
3. @Fitzmotor, about the stock shafts being out of phase. First, let me be clear that while this is not the first time anyone has intentionally done this it is definitely not common nor standard practice. I see it as a hail mary attempt to fix a problem that you can't fix through conventional methods and standards. While I'm hesitant to say "This is why they did it." because I'm not so arrogant that I think I can definitively explain motive and intention of anyone other than myself, I can make some pretty good educated guesses. My understanding of the intentionally out of phase thing is this: Think of two drumsticks on a drum. If you are hitting both sticks against the drum at the same time, every 1 and 3 count, the intensity (loudness) of the drum will be greater than it would be if you were alternating drum sticks and hitting one at a time every 1,2,3,4 count. Vibrations, shudders, noises, are all sort of similar. Noises are just vibrations that travel through the air and our ears pick up. So using this same logic, the wavelength, or frequency of the oscillation of the joints has been intentionally interrupted so that instead of the joints all oscillating/shuddering/vibrating in sync, which would increase the intensity, they have been de-synchronized to reduce intensity. Normally, and in almost every other drive shaft in existence, the joints will be all aligned in phase so that while one joint is speeding up the other is slowing down which will cause one's joint oscillation to cancel out the other's. Either because of the fact that this shaft has 3 joints and it is not possible to get all 3 joints properly synchronized or more likely because reality didn't meet expectations, that the computer simulation of what would work only worked in the computer which forced Ford or Spicer to use an uncommonly used trick (putting the joints out of phase) to try and fix the vibration that the shafts were having. Again, this is just my theory as to why they made the shafts this way, as I was not part of the discussion at Ford or Spicer but that's how the concept is generally understood by us in the drive shaft industry.

For urethane I've used PL S30 10 fl. oz. Black Polyurethane Roof and Flashing Sealant . I used it to coat my body bushings on my Sport trac, worked well and comes in caulking tubes.

 

[NotBudule]

I want to "test pack" it with something to see if it makes a difference before i do anything messy , or take it off , what could go wrong ???

 

[Tremors]

Well it's a forum and a discussion board. Instead of coming and and throwing blanket statements out it would've really helped if he had a civil discussion with Shawn about this. It would benefit many on here and that's the whole idea of this forum. Let's face it no one likes to be criticized or think something they did (or help design) is wrong or faulty but nothing in life is foolproof. I have no dog in this fight as mine is smooth but someday it might not be. It'd be nice to hear BOTH sides and maybe there's a tweak or so that's needed or maybe not.

I don't see any "digs or jabs" that are insulting to Phil. Just others who wish he'd elaborate more from his past expertise instead of calling those who purchased this a fool. Personally I feel that's a dig on the members here who needed and found a solution to their problems.

I agree 100%

 

[Shawn at Tom Wood's]

I want to "test pack" it with something to see if it makes a difference before i do anything messy , or take it off , what could go wrong ???

I have a stock shaft here, that I purchased just for the sake of measuring flanges and other R & D. I don't have much of a use for it anymore. If you do the poly/urethane pour thing and it doesn't work, I'll send you this stock shaft for free. I'd say that I'll pour the urethane here and send you the modified stock shaft to test out but that would mess up the scientific method because we'd be introducing a new variable, the new stock shaft, and we don't know for sure if my stock shaft would have the same characteristics in your truck as your stock shaft. But if you have a shudder/vibration in your truck now, with your stock drive shaft, then pouring urethane into the bushing alleviates that vibration, we can pretty confidently say that it was the bushing modification that made the change. In your truck at least. Then we just have to repeat that 10X times (or more) and we might be onto something! If you want to start by cramming some rubber hose in there first to see if it seems like you're on the right track, knock yourself out. But before I'm satisfied that stiffening up the bearing mount is beneficial I want to see a more high-end process of bushing modification.

The conditions of my proposal, of giving you this stock shaft to replace yours if the urethane thing doesn't work out, is that you do a really good job with the urethane mod. That means taking the shaft out, cleaning the rubber really well, standing it on end, then pouring a 2-part mix and letting that cure. That, and that you document the process with good photos for the benefit of others.

The above offer is open to anyone, whoever is the first person to take me up on it. But only if you currently have a vibration/shudder with your stock shaft. If you are one of the ones with no issue testing this on your truck would be like testing a medicine on a healthy person.

I'd like to point out, that I have nothing to gain from finding other solutions other than gaining knowledge and the ability to help find a solution for you all. Maybe this idea will work phenomenally and we'll never sell another Ranger shaft again. In which case I will be happy knowing that I helped find a solution. Or maybe it won't work or will make things worse, in which case I will be happy knowing that the one-piece shaft really is the best solution. I do genuinely think that the shaft we are making is the best solution, but I'm not afraid of scrutiny. That's how you avoid confirmation bias and prove that you're right, by trying to prove yourself wrong. Or, if your first hypothesis was indeed wrong, your change your mind and support the new conclusion that seems more likely to be right.

Also, despite our shaft working really well for a couple people the sample set is still pretty small. If after selling a few more shafts it starts to look like the success rate of the 1-peice is not near 100% we'll back out of the market. Selling a product that only works something like 80-90% of the time is bad business, we loose money on returns and it means that a problem that was previously not our problem is now our problem. If that happens, if we start hearing from more customers who tell us that the shaft didn't fix the issue, we'll stop selling the shafts. The point I'm trying to make here is that despite some initial success, I'm not going to say that our shaft is absolutely the best solution until there is a bigger date set and a bigger track record of success. So far we've only sold 20 of these shafts.

 

[NotBudule]

@Shawn at Tom Wood's

WV redneck rules require I try something from the junk pile first ... the rope was 1st choice but thought might come out and do the wrap , I went with the large black electric cord ,it was slightly to big so I pulled one wire out and tap tap tap...

it's seated in pretty far now and it has almost ZERO play , can't move it at all really ... going for a test drive and if I dont update , well , things went horribly wrong and " Phil was right" can go on my tombstone...

 

[Shawn at Tom Wood's]

@Shawn at Tom Wood's


WV redneck rules require I try something from the junk pile first ... the rope was 1st choice but thought might come out and do the wrap , I went with the large black electric cord ,it was slightly to big so I pulled one wire out and tap tap tap...

Haha, well I agree then. Rules are rules, best we abide.

 

[NotBudule]

Ok , just got back from a "sprited run", feels like it's gone to me , mine was not bad but noticeable on acceleration and 75 to 85 , I feel nothing at those speeds now , but thought maybe a slight something at 40ish , I think I'm going to switch it out for some rubber hose or solid core from work , but I just crawled back under there and it didn't move any , shaft still has no play and is solid mount...

 

[Stevedbvik1]

@Shawn at Tom Wood's

WV redneck rules require I try something from the junk pile first ... the rope was 1st choice but thought might come out and do the wrap , I went with the large black electric cord ,it was slightly to big so I pulled one wire out and tap tap tap...

it's seated in pretty far now and it has almost ZERO play , can't move it at all really ... going for a test drive and if I dont update , well , things went horribly wrong and " Phil was right" can go on my tombstone...

?

 

[NotBudule]

Disclaimer: I am not recommending anybody lay under their truck and drive an electric cord around their driveshaft ... did I make a magnet though ? ? metal spinning, copper wire , or a generator maybe ? either way , lots less shudder , mudder fudders... hahhahah , I celebrated a little , feeling it... don't hate me , too much anyway...

 

[Shawn at Tom Wood's]

... did I make a magnet though ? ? metal spinning, copper wire , or a generator maybe ?

This is what's known in the biz as a Harper's Ferry Hybrid. Similar to a Tennessee Tesla.

 

[TJC]

Here's an idea:

Who of you with a shuddering drive shaft wants to be a brave pioneer and try pouring polyurethane into your carrier bearing bushing?

I have thought some more about it, and I think I still have some very flexible spear gun rubber band / sling tubing that might work perfectly for this purpose. It is very dense while being very flexible.

I have made pulley belts from it to drive my homemade solar oven tracking base, which allows my oven to passively track the sun. It keeps me from running outside every 20 minutes to rotate the oven. BTW, I can reach 375F in 15 minutes in 25F outdoor temps, and my food never burns! Works great as long as the sun is shining.

The rubber is pliable and firm with a 1/16" hole in the center. Not sure the diameter needed... I think I have 3/8" on hand but it comes in smaller diameters.

Will take a peek tomorrow.

T

 

[myothercarizahearse]

WV redneck rules require I try something from the junk pile first ... the rope was 1st choice but thought might come out and do the wrap , I went with the large black electric cord ,it was slightly to big so I pulled one wire out and tap tap tap...

I think it's just redneck rules because I'm not from WV and my first thought was "what do I have sitting around?"

the wife calls it junk. I call stuff I haven't found a use for yet

 

[NotBudule]

Just got to work and did a nice, normal drive all the way here , everything seems good , great even, and it's too early to tell for sure but my clunk coming up on stoplights seems to be missing , and just to see, I actually put it in "D" for a while, which I never do because of the low RPMs and the "lug" when it drops below 1500 , and it feels WAY better in that situation, but I still hate low RPMs(in this truck ) so that's a non-issue for me ...
Still going to take the cord back out and replace with something that flexes a little and retest , it has 0 flex right now , which concerns me a little since it had so much before ,
Tailgate was unaffected and still lowers properly with no delay or hesitation...

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