My research into the 10R80 shift strategy

[LowKeyTremor]

It does it at random, mostly when the truck was first started for the day. My high idle goes away after a few minutes in the summer, but lasts like 5+ minutes in winter. That doesn’t seem to affect the probability of it happening though, I’ve had it at low idle and still hard shift but only once. So very rarely.

I’m firm enough on the brake to get the truck into R, but not burying the brake either. So somewhere in the middle.

It does it once in a blue moon so I’m not overly worried about hitting something but more worried about the long term drive train health as it’s a sudden, jolting shift.

I would be as well and I HATE inconsistent issues; they seem to go away when u go thru the hassle of taking it in.

Just throwing this out there (you might have already tried it, or maybe it’s of no value, but this is how I got a transmission that would never miss behave in front of the dealer/tech and I couldn’t figure out anything systematic, so I couldn’t go out and repeat it for them. Here’s what I tried:

I had an EXPENSIVE ?? transmission - 2004 BMW 545i w/ all options available - it had the ZF automatic transmission. One day it slipped, and I remember thinking, “that’s not good, and that was definitely a full blown slip… Not my imagination!”

Eventually, it got to the point to were it would slip with enough regularity that it was going to be a full failure sooner or later IMO. Of course, I took it to the dealership, and especially in the beginning, I got the exact results I expected… No problems witnessed/observed

I decided troubleshooting, was now going to
be my job, as it was the only way I was going to get out of this, without eventually having to pay out-of-pocket

Hi So I tried as many things as I could, until I finally got lucky, put it in sport mode, and shifted manually.

I felt dread because I knew it was a fairly big issue and would probably be a complete transmission replacement ,(The ZF definitely not one of the cheaper transmissions)

Because here’s the big part : at the time it would be covered, but without a day of exaggeration, I had 13 days left on the warranty, which would cover the transmission issue, and be a full replacement!

Anyways, it’s a longshot, but have you ever tried holding out gears and just strange combinations in sport mode while you manually shift it?
- hold out different RPMs
- Accelerate at certain RPMs.
- Be systematic and try the same thing
through each gear The lack of repeatability
is so frustrating in your shoes!
** I take it that it goes without saying, you aren’t tapping the brake as you accelerate. The truck just pulls all of the power (quite a bit if not all ) if someone is hitting the brake and throttle at the same time


All I know is that, realizing that it was up to me to figure it out in the end, that whole incident has given me a whole new strategy and approach. If anything like that happens, I will try some strange, yet logical steps!

I went ahead and switch to manual mode, and on that car, it was just more or less the same thing… Pop it over to the left and press some buttons to shift.
I basically wanted to get some thing that was repeatable:
- Was it RPM specific?
- Was it engine load specific?
- was it all good until a certain gear?

* that’s when, while systematically trying different things, I sped up pretty quickly, and I didn’t do anything, but I just went ahead and left it at that higher rpm, and after 10 seconds, ‘SLIP!!’

Probably one of the bigger senses of relief I’ve had in my life; especially on the money side

In that aha moment, I realize that holding out any of the gears at about 4000 RPMs and it would Slip like clockwork… Every 5 to 10 seconds.

Back to dealership!
That was the third time into that dealership and I bet I had a pretty smug look on my face when I looked over at the service tech and just asked him why I had to be the one to figure this stuff out (in other words, why was I the only one who cycled through sport… Etc.)
- The answer was probably they just needed another two weeks from me

I want you to have the same results I had! I know it was probably pure luck, but maybe some of these things can be applied. Very possibly, you’ve already done it, but maybe come up with some other tests?

Here’s one: get some weight in the bed of the truck… Make sure it’s safe, of course, but could something like that trigger the behavior?

Gotta love these transmissions when they’re working, right, but they are very complicated and very expensive!
I am rooting for you, man and if I think of anything, I’ll go ahead and chime in as long as it’s not idiotic!

We are all on the same team, and when you get a win, we all get a win on this one!
Best of luck in the meantime! Let’s get you a win!

My sincerest regards,
Kyle

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[pbethel]

A

I'm not sure if I am explaining the problem well enough, but every automatic transmission (and even the ones on U-Haul trucks) they recommend downshifting when you need to ride the brakes for a long time (i.e. going down a steep hill).

On every automatic transmission, even DCT and CVT, you can select "L" or go 3-2-1 down a steep hill so you don't have to put excessive pressure on the brake pedal.

My '22 Ranger is the only automatic transmission vehicle that squeals the rear tires when going 4-3-2-1 down a steep hill with the brake depressed. That's during a speed of 10-15mph, moderate brake application, and down a steep enough hill where downshifting a manual would easily allow for a 2nd and 1st gear engagement with a blip of the throttle.

So I don't think we are talking about "rev match" per se in the technical sense, i.e. blipping the gas during a downshift on a manual, or double-clutching, but the simple fact that I cannot cleanly downshift from 4-3-2-1 going down a hill without a tire squeal.

That does not seem normal, but every other automatic with a range lockout (read: even hydraulic ones from the 60's) allowed for selecting 3-2-1 without much drama.

You get the same effect by letting a manual trans clutch out slowly. It drags the engine rpm up.
If you sidestep the clutch pedal the engine can't rev that fast and tire chirp ensues.
That is what all non computer autos have done since before the powerglide and most continue to do to this day.
It isn't the computer 'rev matching'.

 

[Squatchranger]

Just to clarify, I was replying to ccasanova22 and talking about rev matching while downshifting a manual. Nothing about the 10R80.

No worries and yeah that is definitely a lost art, just about every modern manual (what few there are left) rev matches automatically, have hill start assists etc. I am only 24 but I learned how to drive a manual at 14 and boy was that an experience, i was on a ww2 willys jeep and that thing was special to put it nicely, but after that I can get in just about any manual nanny features or not and be just fine. Its a shame that few have that skillset now, most don't even know what rev matching is.

 

[LowKeyTremor]

No worries and yeah that is definitely a lost art, just about every modern manual (what few there are left) rev matches automatically, have hill start assists etc. I am only 24 but I learned how to drive a manual at 14 and boy was that an experience, i was on a ww2 willys jeep and that thing was special to put it nicely, but after that I can get in just about any manual nanny features or not and be just fine. Its a shame that few have that skillset now, most don't even know what rev matching is.

lol I learned in a non-forgiving clutch lol. Coincidentally, it was a 1989 Ford ranger cab and 1/2 was a 1989 cabin a half were the backseats faced inward, and could be folded away out of sight…

Anyways, I noticed trucks of those years were very late to engage on the clutch, and it was a very small window for engaging. But once ya have that down, anything felt fairly easy.

Since I’m a little older than you, when you talk about rev, matching, you are mentioning features that I would like to have had for sure! Of course, I would just blip the throttle accordingly and get a decent match going.

So, are you saying that jeep needed to synchros matched?

Take away:
If you haven’t had to match Synchros (SquatchRanger, that’s an experience most don’t know! )
OR
If you’ve never sidestepped the brake and clutch, or utilized the parking brake to keep from rolling into a vehicle on a very steep hill, you haven’t lived the true manual transmission life lol.

I don’t know if anyone is in there with Marin Road in Berkeley, California, which takes you straight up the hill into the Berkeley/Oakland Hills, but I would say it’s the steepest thing I’ve ever seen. Going uphill, there’s five stop signs as well…

I checked it with the truck as I was going up and it was going back-and-forth between 12° slope and 14°. I was rocking that at age 16 with the racing clutch on the cobra. I had driven it before the racing clutch and after… Talk about increasing difficulty lol.

Anyways, I have a picture that kind of gives an idea of that hill. Anyone who can drive this hill with a manual transmission and no special features, handling the stop signs going uphill, I give them a pretty darn proficient, score for manual, transmissions skills. The funny thing is, I think it looks really steep in the picture, but it doesn’t even do it justice lol. (ha so fitting… The car in there is a Prius. This is before electric cars)

You can tell who knows what they’re doing and who’s local to the area because you won’t see brake lights. It’s so steep, he just let the car slow down on its own, then feather the clutch with a little bit of that skinny pedal… Try to look like you have a clue, and limit your back-and-forth action… Then when it’s your turn, drive off as normal.

 

[ccasanova22]

Regardless of the rev match situation, it shouldn’t do what it’s doing (lock up rear tires) as every other vehicle I own does not do that.

I called the dealer, explained the issue, and they immediately offered to reflash the trans and do a re-learn on Monday.

Sounds like a common issue, and they have seen plenty 10R80’s do it. It’s also related to the 3-4 “bang” and delayed reverse engagement they think.

 

[Apples]

Reading this thread, one would think the 10R80 was the worst performing transmission ever! And, that every owner has issues with it! The truth lies elsewhere.

 

[Squatchranger]

lol I learned in a non-forgiving clutch lol. Coincidentally, it was a 1989 Ford ranger cab and 1/2 was a 1989 cabin a half were the backseats faced inward, and could be folded away out of sight…

Anyways, I noticed trucks of those years were very late to engage on the clutch, and it was a very small window for engaging. But once ya have that down, anything felt fairly easy.

Since I’m a little older than you, when you talk about rev, matching, you are mentioning features that I would like to have had for sure! Of course, I would just blip the throttle accordingly and get a decent match going.

So, are you saying that jeep needed to synchros matched?

Take away:
If you haven’t had to match Synchros (SquatchRanger, that’s an experience most don’t know! )
OR
If you’ve never sidestepped the brake and clutch, or utilized the parking brake to keep from rolling into a vehicle on a very steep hill, you haven’t lived the true manual transmission life lol.

I don’t know if anyone is in there with Marin Road in Berkeley, California, which takes you straight up the hill into the Berkeley/Oakland Hills, but I would say it’s the steepest thing I’ve ever seen. Going uphill, there’s five stop signs as well…

I checked it with the truck as I was going up and it was going back-and-forth between 12° slope and 14°. I was rocking that at age 16 with the racing clutch on the cobra. I had driven it before the racing clutch and after… Talk about increasing difficulty lol.

Anyways, I have a picture that kind of gives an idea of that hill. Anyone who can drive this hill with a manual transmission and no special features, handling the stop signs going uphill, I give them a pretty darn proficient, score for manual, transmissions skills. The funny thing is, I think it looks really steep in the picture, but it doesn’t even do it justice lol. (ha so fitting… The car in there is a Prius. This is before electric cars)

You can tell who knows what they’re doing and who’s local to the area because you won’t see brake lights. It’s so steep, he just let the car slow down on its own, then feather the clutch with a little bit of that skinny pedal… Try to look like you have a clue, and limit your back-and-forth action… Then when it’s your turn, drive off as normal.

Yeah it was a transmission and clutch from the 40's so it was incredibly temperamental and difficult, I learned up in the mountains of north Georgia so I had to deal with some grades but not too much surprisingly. The biggest thing was when I was driving on some trails and I ended up stalling it in a creek in the middle of the woods. My young naive self didnt think to just start it back up and head on out so I was sitting there in the creek absolutely terrified.

 

[Squatchranger]

Reading this thread, one would think the 10R80 was the worst performing transmission ever! And, that every owner has issues with it! The truth lies elsewhere.

I mean now that mine is fixed it performs brilliantly, super smooth and ergonomic, it was brilliant before it broke too, its just the breaking part that isn't ideal

 

[DukeCanBuildit]

Reading this thread, one would think the 10R80 was the worst performing transmission ever! And, that every owner has issues with it! The truth lies elsewhere.

Absolutely agree.

 

[Bravohook]

It’s unclear how this shift strategy would affect long term drivability, as some other 8 and 9 speed transmissions (such as those from Toyota and Nissan) in their heavy SUVs seem to last just fine, but I do know that the Ranger 10R80 is so inconsistent sometimes I get a tire squeal when manually shifting 4-3-2-1 going down hills, when the speed is maybe 10-15mph. I shouldn’t hear any tires chirping when REDUCING speed thru a downshift, these are some steep hills and I don’t like riding the brake the whole hill…

I just traded my ranger in on a 2024 Toyota Grand Highlander. All I can say is toyota has the drivtrain figured out. The 2.4l turbo and 8 speed trans is soooooo much more refined than the ford 10 speed. It is such a more enjoyable drive. When the new Taco comes out I will give it a serious look.

 

[ccasanova22]

I just traded my ranger in on a 2024 Toyota Grand Highlander. All I can say is toyota has the drivtrain figured out. The 2.4l turbo and 8 speed trans is soooooo much more refined than the ford 10 speed. It is such a more enjoyable drive. When the new Taco comes out I will give it a serious look.

Agree, it’s not just the SUVs their trucks do shift very well too, even the 1980’s T100 with a 5 speed manual was precise and solid. If the 10L80 in Camaro SS is a close cousin of our units, and shifts perfectly (firm but smooth), why can’t our trucks do the same?

Mine is currently a combination of too slow, too delayed, and then finally a slam once in a while as it figures itself out. Started recently with the cooler weather now every morning 3-4 is a bang.

I’m betting once I get my reprogram it will all be gone again, so I guess these transmissions “learn” to shift sloppily over time.

Wish there was an update from Ford as my dealer is wanting to flash first and send me on my way. I think they just want to prolong the issue until the warranty runs out.

 

[Bravohook]

Agree, it’s not just the SUVs their trucks do shift very well too, even the 1980’s T100 with a 5 speed manual was precise and solid. If the 10L80 in Camaro SS is a close cousin of our units, and shifts perfectly (firm but smooth), why can’t our trucks do the same?

Mine is currently a combination of too slow, too delayed, and then finally a slam once in a while as it figures itself out. Started recently with the cooler weather now every morning 3-4 is a bang.

I’m betting once I get my reprogram it will all be gone again, so I guess these transmissions “learn” to shift sloppily over time.

Wish there was an update from Ford as my dealer is wanting to flash first and send me on my way. I think they just want to prolong the issue until the warranty runs out.

Mine always felt as it was “Slipping”. If you california rolled a stop sign it didn't know what gear to go in and would just rev up and slide into something. Sometimes on cold take offs there would be power cut outs in between several gears till it got warmed up. Had the FP tune on it and it would be great for a couple days then back to be a brain dead trans again. Always resetting back to the relearn process. Ohh well its gone and I cant say Im sad to see the truck go. I tried to like it but i just couldn’t do it anymore. The truck really needs the 7 speed manual like the bronco.

 

[GSD4EVR]

I was wondering if there are any thoughts on how running a larger tire size (diameter) might influence / exacerbate the transmission issues in this thread (assuming no re-calibration is made)?

I've got about 33k miles on my '20 and have been running 265/70-17 AT's from almost 2k onward (I've never re-calibrated the speedo or anything). I didn't care much for the transmission from the get-go, even on the stock tires, but now find that I rather like it and so far have had nothing come up that made me think problems were developing. In fact, it nicely downshifts going downhill grades when I pump the brakes once or twice. I just coast steadily until I come up behind someone who is riding theirs and force me to touch my brakes again for the same effect. At slower speeds, down hill, I'm able to lockout the higher gears without issue.

I've been on some fairly mild off-road rock climbing trails and I've enjoyed the control the transmission has given me.

No doubt having larger tires can increase wear over time, but I was just curious if any of that is or should be considered when investigating these transmission issues.

 

[Squatchranger]

Agree, it’s not just the SUVs their trucks do shift very well too, even the 1980’s T100 with a 5 speed manual was precise and solid. If the 10L80 in Camaro SS is a close cousin of our units, and shifts perfectly (firm but smooth), why can’t our trucks do the same?

Mine is currently a combination of too slow, too delayed, and then finally a slam once in a while as it figures itself out. Started recently with the cooler weather now every morning 3-4 is a bang.

I’m betting once I get my reprogram it will all be gone again, so I guess these transmissions “learn” to shift sloppily over time.

Wish there was an update from Ford as my dealer is wanting to flash first and send me on my way. I think they just want to prolong the issue until the warranty runs out.

You have a hardware issue not a software one.

 

[MarioCart]

You have a hardware issue not a software one.

Thats why I believe there is a multi tier approach to this latest TSB.
it not only weeds out the ones who think they have a bigger problem, it also helps Ford narrow down the actual problem and find the right solution. Unfortunately for the early fails, that doesnt help those that suffered, nor does the speed at which the solution arrives sufficiently acceptable for others.
We can all start our own motor company if we wish, no one ever said it was easy, even for some companies that have been doing it awhile.
We ask a lot of transmissions. Sometimes I think too much.
And reading threads on trans problems brings 100 different defects. Ford has to figure it out.

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