Ford asks dealers to invest in EVs as it chases Tesla-like profit

[Jbrubakerjr]

Nuclear is the answer but to many tree huggers are against them.

Yes, it is, but there is not as much financial upside as well.

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[Grumpaw]

Is the electric grid ready?
Where is this large electricity source?

Here.....

 

[dtech]

The ‘nightmare’ continues. Just like an Alfred Hitchcock movie. ?
https://en-volve.com/2022/09/15/tes...ut-of-car-until-paying-26000-for-new-battery/

What can we as individuals do to put a stop to this madness, I hope for the astronauts sake that Space X isn't using the same defective lith-ion batteries to power their rockets. What if they get locked out their capsule owing to a bad battery ? yikes.

 

[Progeny2021]

What can we as individuals do to put a stop to this madness, I hope for the astronauts sake that Space X isn't using the same defective lith-ion batteries to power their rockets. What if they get locked out their capsule owing to a bad battery ? yikes.

Scary for sure. Brings back the memories.....

 

[AzScorpion]

Spot on, ICE vehicles will be old news in 10 years as there is no stopping the conversion to EV vehicles. Additionally Tesla is building their own charging system which is superior to everything else available. In two years the Tesla Model Y will be the number one selling vehicle in the world. The US has reached a critical tipping point with EV purchases and they sales are going to double yearly for at least 4 years. That will put EV sales at over 60% of all vehicle sales by 2026. By 2030 Tesla alone will sell 20 million cars per year. Some of you may not want to hear this but you may have bought your last ICE vehicle and you'd be crazy to buy a new one right now because their value is going to crash significantly in the next 2 to 3 years.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-09/us-electric-car-sales-reach-key-milestone?leadSource=uverify wall

https://insideevs.com/news/602829/tesla-modely-best-selling/

While I agree to a point there's still way to many things that need to be addressed. The whole countries grid needs a MAJOR overhaul and that will cost BILLIONS. Now once that's done who do you think will pay for this? ? If you (not you personally) think gas prices were high this summer just wait and see what electricity is going to cost after all this is done. Then there's still the long charging times, no one will/wants to wait 90+ minutes for a charge. Then you have the distance especially for those who are towing. The Lightning towing distance is a joke at 100 miles towing a normal size travel trailer. Sure these things will improve over time but again, at what cost?

There's no doubt Tesla/Elon are the king of EV's and most likely will be for many years to come. I'm sure he will be the one to develop these things and offer them to others and a significant cost. Unless of course you're driving a Tesla. lol ?

I'm all for EV's IN TIME but don't ram it down our throats and try to force something that's not 100% ready right now. I'm looking forward to a PHEV Ranger as that will suite my driving style but a full EV, not for me until all these other negatives are addressed. ?

 

[Grumpaw]

The RV industry will suffer...even if the range doubles to 200-250 miles, who wants to stop every 3-4 hours to charge up, if you can find a charge station with no line. Campgrounds will have to up-grade their infrastructure, which means the cost will go up for campers. State and national campgrounds where basic dry camping is allowed will most likely not be providing charge stations.
Over the road truckers will suffer as their limited to a certain number of hours they spend behind the wheel daily, and I doubt they want to spend several hours of that time charging their rigs. Can you imagine the electric needed at a large truck stop to start pumping juice to 50-60 rigs at one time ???
Even regular travelers using hotels/motels will be at a disadvantage, as the companies will have to raise their rates to make up for charging stations and juice at each and every hotel/motel. Many mom n pop's will probably go under due to upgrade costs unless the govt (us) pays for it.
Many states can barely supply their citizens with an un-interrupted supply of juice, and some are begging their customers to cut back. Then you have mother nature who loves to destroy our old outdated power grid with simple storms.
The EveryReady Bunny is looking better and better.

 

[Progeny2021]

The RV industry will suffer...even if the range doubles to 200-250 miles, who wants to stop every 3-4 hours to charge up, if you can find a charge station with no line. Campgrounds will have to up-grade their infrastructure, which means the cost will go up for campers.

State and national campgrounds where basic dry camping is allowed will most likely not be providing charge stations.


Over the road truckers will suffer as their limited to a certain number of hours they spend behind the wheel daily, and I doubt they want to spend several hours of that time charging their rigs. Can you imagine the electric needed at a large truck stop to start pumping juice to 50-60 rigs at one time ???


Even regular travelers using hotels/motels will be at a disadvantage, as the companies will have to raise their rates to make up for charging stations and juice at each and every hotel/motel. Many mom n pop's will probably go under due to upgrade costs unless the govt (us) pays for it.


Many states can barely supply their citizens with an un-interrupted supply of juice, and some are begging their customers to cut back. Then you have mother nature who loves to destroy our old outdated power grid with simple storms.


The EveryReady Bunny is looking better and better.

You can thank me later.

 

[Grumpaw]

2 alternatives.....

 

[EJH]

The RV industry will suffer...even if the range doubles to 200-250 miles, who wants to stop every 3-4 hours to charge up, if you can find a charge station with no line. Campgrounds will have to up-grade their infrastructure, which means the cost will go up for campers. State and national campgrounds where basic dry camping is allowed will most likely not be providing charge stations.
Over the road truckers will suffer as their limited to a certain number of hours they spend behind the wheel daily, and I doubt they want to spend several hours of that time charging their rigs. Can you imagine the electric needed at a large truck stop to start pumping juice to 50-60 rigs at one time ???
Even regular travelers using hotels/motels will be at a disadvantage, as the companies will have to raise their rates to make up for charging stations and juice at each and every hotel/motel. Many mom n pop's will probably go under due to upgrade costs unless the govt (us) pays for it.
Many states can barely supply their citizens with an un-interrupted supply of juice, and some are begging their customers to cut back. Then you have mother nature who loves to destroy our old outdated power grid with simple storms.
The EveryReady Bunny is looking better and better.

Agree for the most part.

I like EVs, and have been a holder of Tesla stock off/on for a long time. As an engineer, I admire the technology.

However, my family needs rugged vehicles that can do a rough forest road, of which only a few EVs are capable (Rivan, Lightening, etc), and they are way too pricey. We also don't commute. We need vehicles that can road trip, and one that can tow a 5k lbs trailer. I am not willing to charge every couple hours for 30-60 minutes, especially when much of our driving is in freezing temps a quarter of the year. At this time, there isn’t an EV that suits my family. I wish there were more options in the $30k-50k that had decent ground clearance, and that charging was easier/quicker.

 

[JDowns]

In the link below it states that in August all 50 states had submitted plans to build out the charging infrastructure, the article also describes how gas stations in Europe are installing fast charging stations, the $7.5 billion allocated in the US to build out 500,000 charging stations isn't intend to cover the entire cost but assist with the required investment - to allow gas stations for instance to be able to invest and receive ROI over time - just like countless other capital intensive projects have been made financially viable. There is a lot going on towards making EVs viable - both globally and in the US with auto makers and private investments, globally automakers have announced and are making over $300B investments in EVs , and investments in global EV charging is projected to reach $360B by 2030. As history has shown however there is always a good deal of skepticism and resistance where transitional technology is involved but eventually the kerosene lamp was replaced as was the horse and buggy and so eventually will the ice auto, it's happening.

https://electrek.co/2022/08/04/gas-stations-ev-charging/

I'm gonna have to take that link with a little bit of grain of salt considering its basically a white paper sales pitch from a company selling a service.

Most gas stations are independent stations with slim margins that make most their profits from selling soda. Very few can afford the hundreds of thousands of dollars to invest in transitioning too fast EV charging. Larger chains like QuickTrip (KwikTrip) that are not petroleum companies like Shell, Chevron, Exxon, etc will be able to afford the transition but most others will go by the wayside. One thing is for certain, a replacement service never stays cheaper in the long run. The cost to charge at these locations will increase drastically matching the cost of fuel today. No business goes into business to make less money. Utility rates across the board will increase. Basic supply and demand principals hold true. Profit revenues will just shift from one industry to the next and in this case the utility companies. Grids are already overtaxed, and in desperate need of an overhaul that will cost billions upon billions nationwide. That CAPEX investment will just result in higher rates to homeowners and businesses driving up costs across the board. Removing oil from the equation isn't going to create some magical land of rainbows and unicorns where things are cheaper. I wont argue whether or not EV's are coming, we are being forced into it, just get ready to open your wallet a lot more. With every transition comes a cost.

 

[Motorpsychology]

Nuclear is the answer but to many tree huggers are against them.

10-4. Time to revisit nuclear. While we are the largest producer of nuclear power in terms of shear energy, France is second, producing 75% of its electricity from nuclear plants safely.

Interesting sidebar about "tree huggers." the term originally referred to lumberjacks, particularly the crews that would shinny up the trunk to limb a tree before felling it, to help direct which way the tree fell. It was
considered a favorable nickname.
In the 20th century, eco-demonstrators would embrace trees to disrupt cutting, which when properly managed, actually promotes a healthy forest ecology.

 

[JDowns]

I'd go on a limb and say EV's are going to be a short term evolution in the automobile.

Now hear me out as I know some of you are already laughing. There was a time when shale oil was just far too expensive to extract to be viable. Industries knew it was there, knew how to get it out of the ground and refine it. But the cost to do so exceeded other means. The markets changed though as did technologies and shale oil became viable.

If you look at the investments into eFuel (hydrogen) from Siemens, Exxon, Chevron, Porche, Mercedes, Toyota, ....the list goes on and on. The benefits of eFuel over batteries are vast. Whats been missing for years has been the investment and the technology. Will EV's have a place...for sure. Will automakers ride the tax incentivized EV market while its here....of course. But I do believe there will be a day that eFuel vehicles far exceed EV's and take over the combustion engine market.

it's a bit ironic that the largest oil companies are being paid billions of dollars from the Infrastructure Bill to invest in the carbon capture methods that are making eFuel viable and will support the future of the combustion engine.

 

[peterson1604]

While I agree to a point there's still way to many things that need to be addressed. The whole countries grid needs a MAJOR overhaul and that will cost BILLIONS. Now once that's done who do you think will pay for this? ? If you (not you personally) think gas prices were high this summer just wait and see what electricity is going to cost after all this is done. Then there's still the long charging times, no one will/wants to wait 90+ minutes for a charge. Then you have the distance especially for those who are towing. The Lightning towing distance is a joke at 100 miles towing a normal size travel trailer. Sure these things will improve over time but again, at what cost?

There's no doubt Tesla/Elon are the king of EV's and most likely will be for many years to come. I'm sure he will be the one to develop these things and offer them to others and a significant cost. Unless of course you're driving a Tesla. lol ?

I'm all for EV's IN TIME but don't ram it down our throats and try to force something that's not 100% ready right now. I'm looking forward to a PHEV Ranger as that will suite my driving style but a full EV, not for me until all these other negatives are addressed. ?

I agree with some of what you say Dave but I do believe the grid will be updated via technology and other means we are unaware of including

While I agree to a point there's still way to many things that need to be addressed. The whole countries grid needs a MAJOR overhaul and that will cost BILLIONS. Now once that's done who do you think will pay for this? ? If you (not you personally) think gas prices were high this summer just wait and see what electricity is going to cost after all this is done. Then there's still the long charging times, no one will/wants to wait 90+ minutes for a charge. Then you have the distance especially for those who are towing. The Lightning towing distance is a joke at 100 miles towing a normal size travel trailer. Sure these things will improve over time but again, at what cost?

There's no doubt Tesla/Elon are the king of EV's and most likely will be for many years to come. I'm sure he will be the one to develop these things and offer them to others and a significant cost. Unless of course you're driving a Tesla. lol ?

I'm all for EV's IN TIME but don't ram it down our throats and try to force something that's not 100% ready right now. I'm looking forward to a PHEV Ranger as that will suite my driving style but a full EV, not for me until all these other negatives are addressed. ?

I agree the government shouldn't force it and the IRA $7500 tax credit for EVs is BS. Tesla and Ford don't need them, they already have a backlog of orders that far exceed production. I don't agree that the grade is going to be a problem. I think in the very near future you're going to see solar shingles and houses with battery packs soon expanding very quickly. Tesla is also building huge battery reservoirs in Texas and California that will provide power. In other shocking news are very liberal Governor even said she was going to look at nuclear power in the state of Michigan. i about ran off the road when I heard that.

 

[Motorpsychology]

In other shocking news are very liberal Governor even said she was going to look at nuclear power in the state of Michigan. i about ran off the road when I heard that.

Now that SpaceX has proven dependable, costs are coming down. Maybe to the point where we could launch spent nuclear fuel to the sun. It would totally disintegrate before reaching the surface. The Sun's corona averages 8 million degrees Kelvin, or about 14.4 million degrees Fahrenheit.
Another technology I've heard about is nano-diamond batteries. I'm not understanding some of the principles of it, but basically the radioactive carbon isotope in spent fuel rods is compressed under tremendous pressure until it is like zirconium and then supplied to a capacitor network, and are nonradioactive. Theoretically, they could provide energy for 26,000 years (the half life of the carbon isotope). The early application would be for satellite power and self powered chips, but could be expanded for lifetime hearing aids and pacemakers. Currently, the capacitor mechanism would be too large for automotive or residential/commercial use, but it is believed the the nano diamond tech would be scalable.

 

[dtech]

I'd go on a limb and say EV's are going to be a short term evolution in the automobile.

Now hear me out as I know some of you are already laughing. There was a time when shale oil was just far too expensive to extract to be viable. Industries knew it was there, knew how to get it out of the ground and refine it. But the cost to do so exceeded other means. The markets changed though as did technologies and shale oil became viable.

If you look at the investments into eFuel (hydrogen) from Siemens, Exxon, Chevron, Porche, Mercedes, Toyota, ....the list goes on and on. The benefits of eFuel over batteries are vast. Whats been missing for years has been the investment and the technology. Will EV's have a place...for sure. Will automakers ride the tax incentivized EV market while its here....of course. But I do believe there will be a day that eFuel vehicles far exceed EV's and take over the combustion engine market.

it's a bit ironic that the largest oil companies are being paid billions of dollars from the Infrastructure Bill to invest in the carbon capture methods that are making eFuel viable and will support the future of the combustion engine.

Perhaps ironic but with respect to getting a bill based biz as usual in DC, Bill also provides for more drilling leases, a compromise. I disagree regards tax incentives as they are only credits with income limits designed to make EVs more available to lower incomes, but if it succeeds this piece of legislation is designed to spur creation of jobs in the us and to a degree its already happening. At one time this is what the usa was all about, developing innovations then capitalizing on the production and selling. So it's interesting following the ev discussion about why the plan won't succeed from ice proponents, most of it has been countered by factual information about technology and the magnitude of investments being made, plus examples of success in other countries. This transition will create jobs in the hundreds of thousands and I think it's critical that many are created in the USA. Oil companies still make big profits and if you are not aware still benefit from billions of federal subsidies.

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