It happened - 78k miles - CEL flashing and BAD shudder under load

[LawnMM]

We could probably all save ourselves the hassle by just pulling that plug and smearing some anti seize on it before the miles and the moisture gets to it.

I'm not saying Ford shouldn't fix it, they should. Just saying the end user solution isn't a horribly inconvenient one. 10 minutes and 10$ of anti seize before it gets to this point and you're golden.

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[Shawn_Mc]

Just so everybody understands, the CEL, Check Engine Light, is always going to be in reference to a change in emissions. It could be something that loads up the CATs, oil in the cylinders changing the HCs, a drop in 02, a hike in 02...anything outside the parameters set. And it's government mandated. The manufacturers couldn't care less. The number of things that influence the emissions is huge. But the check engine light is always emissions related. If the trans is locking up, pulling down the engine to the point where it's over heating, that could throw a check engine light, but it wasn't because the ECU saw a trans issue, it's because of the engine temps. Make sense?
A bad plug, bad coil (coils hate heat, the worst idea ever is "coil on plug" but boy howdy, it sure does keep those vehicles coming back to the dealer!!) significantly impact emissions obviously, but so would oil in the exhaust, a fouled O2 sensor, a failed O2 sensor, anything that impacts that 02 parameter is going to kick out the Check engine code.

 

[Frenchy]

Just so everybody understands, the CEL, Check Engine Light, is always going to be in reference to a change in emissions. It could be something that loads up the CATs, oil in the cylinders changing the HCs, a drop in 02, a hike in 02...anything outside the parameters set. And it's government mandated. The manufacturers couldn't care less. The number of things that influence the emissions is huge. But the check engine light is always emissions related. If the trans is locking up, pulling down the engine to the point where it's over heating, that could throw a check engine light, but it wasn't because the ECU saw a trans issue, it's because of the engine temps. Make sense?
A bad plug, bad coil (coils hate heat, the worst idea ever is "coil on plug" but boy howdy, it sure does keep those vehicles coming back to the dealer!!) significantly impact emissions obviously, but so would oil in the exhaust, a fouled O2 sensor, a failed O2 sensor, anything that impacts that 02 parameter is going to kick out the Check engine code.

You are both correct and wrong.

Yes it is primarily emissions related, but there are many parameters that will be used to detect various problems. Just because the engine gets hot does not.mean it will thrown a code for a transmission problem. The logic for each DTC available will be different.

 

[airline tech]

The rear most plug is #1 - and yes, that is the plug that is affected by this.

Correction - #4 is nearest the Firewall

Those who park in a steep (Nose Down) will get the rainwater to puddle in the #1
Those who park level or a slight (Nose Down) will get the rainwater to puddle in #4

The above depends on how well the plastic cowl is tapped / sealed.
and if engine cover is installed (For SOME protection)

Arrow Indicates Front of Engine

 

[db_tanker]

The rear most plug is #1 - and yes, that is the plug that is affected by this.

So...the rearmost plug is #1. - EDIT - after the post from airline tech I am more interested in this conversation...common sense tells me that #1 will always be closest to the front of the vehicle. That and the fact that my driveway is at a rake of about 4-5 degrees and I back in it makes a ton more logic.

Therefore my #4 plug, closest to the radiator, was at fault.

WTH?!?

And the dealer got the broken plug out. Quote for the repair, replace all plugs, clean up the intake ports and fuel injection clean, and the fancy "Lariat" engine cover is 1300.

Waiting to see what Geico might cover with the MBI.

Happy Hollidays. lol

 

[Frenchy]

So...the rearmost plug is #1.

Therefore my #4 plug, closest to the radiator, was at fault.

WTH?!?

And the dealer got the broken plug out. Quote for the repair, replace all plugs, clean up the intake ports and fuel injection clean, and the fancy "Lariat" engine cover is 1300.

Waiting to see what Geico might cover with the MBI.

Happy Hollidays. lol

Got it backwards. #1 is by the radiator and #4 is by the cab

 

[RedlandRanger]

Correction - #4 is nearest the Firewall

Those who park in a steep (Nose Down) will get the rainwater to puddle in the #1
Those who park level or a slight (Nose Down) will get the rainwater to puddle in #4

The above depends on how well the plastic cowl is tapped / sealed.
and if engine cover is installed (For SOME protection)

Arrow Indicates Front of Engine

I stand corrected. I swear when I had issues with that back COP, it said misfire on plug #1 - but maybe my memory is failing me.

 

[LawnMM]

So...the rearmost plug is #1. - EDIT - after the post from airline tech I am more interested in this conversation...common sense tells me that #1 will always be closest to the front of the vehicle. That and the fact that my driveway is at a rake of about 4-5 degrees and I back in it makes a ton more logic.

Therefore my #4 plug, closest to the radiator, was at fault.

WTH?!?

And the dealer got the broken plug out. Quote for the repair, replace all plugs, clean up the intake ports and fuel injection clean, and the fancy "Lariat" engine cover is 1300.

Waiting to see what Geico might cover with the MBI.

Happy Hollidays. lol

Why do you have to pay for the repair of something they broke?

 

[airline tech]

You are both correct and wrong.

Yes it is primarily emissions related, but there are many parameters that will be used to detect various problems. Just because the engine gets hot does not.mean it will thrown a code for a transmission problem. The logic for each DTC available will be different.

Yes, primarily a Solid Check Engine Light - Is mostly related to an Emissions code.

But with relation to this thread
A FLASHING Check Engine Light - Is an attention getter, look at me, it is telling you that you have an issue, most common is a severe cylinder misfire, and it needs addressed ASAP or possible CAT damage may occur.

So...the rearmost plug is #1. - EDIT - after the post from airline tech I am more interested in this conversation...common sense tells me that #1 will always be closest to the front of the vehicle. That and the fact that my driveway is at a rake of about 4-5 degrees and I back in it makes a ton more logic.

Therefore my #4 plug, closest to the radiator, was at fault.

WTH?!?

And the dealer got the broken plug out. Quote for the repair, replace all plugs, clean up the intake ports and fuel injection clean, and the fancy "Lariat" engine cover is 1300.

Waiting to see what Geico might cover with the MBI.

Happy Hollidays. lol

They should also replace the Boots for any boot that was flooded with water in the well.

 

[airline tech]

Why do you have to pay for the repair of something they broke?

While I agree with you, this is a hot topic and should be 100% covered by Ford, as it is a design flaw that is causing the water in the wells.
He needs to consider himself lucky they got it out vs Head Replacement for cost wise.

With any warranty (Powertrain / Extended), Spark Plugs are NOT a covered item.

Due to that (exclusion) above Ford is always going to fight it as a NOT Covered item, some have got lucky and had Ford Corporate cover all or a percentage of the cost for this engineering oversight flaw.

As long as an experience tech is removing the plug and knows that it takes a technique to remove the frozen plugs they will come out, but if they just put the ratchet on it and exert full torque on the handle, they will snap off the plug, if they are lucky, they can remove it with an easy out extractor.

Now Tie in the TSB for the Engine Cover - This only covers the cost for the Engine Cover (Only) and the labor to install the cover. But since he is out of the Powertrain Warranty, Ford Will not cover it.

Sorry, to be a Debbie Downer, but I highly doubt the Geico Coverage will pay anything towards this.

 

[LawnMM]

While I agree with you, this is a hot topic and should be 100% covered by Ford, as it is a design flaw that is causing the water in the wells.
He needs to consider himself lucky they got it out vs Head Replacement for cost wise.

With any warranty (Powertrain / Extended), Spark Plugs are NOT a covered item.

Due to that (exclusion) above Ford is always going to fight it as a NOT Covered item, some have got lucky and had Ford Corporate cover all or a percentage of the cost for this engineering oversight flaw.

As long as an experience tech is removing the plug and knows that it takes a technique to remove the frozen plugs they will come out, but if they just put the ratchet on it and exert full torque on the handle, they will snap off the plug, if they are lucky, they can remove it with an easy out extractor.

Now Tie in the TSB for the Engine Cover - This only covers the cost for the Engine Cover (Only) and the labor to install the cover. But since he is out of the Powertrain Warranty, Ford Will not cover it.

Sorry, to be a Debbie Downer, but I highly doubt the Geico Coverage will pay anything towards this.

I'll clarify because I believe we agree. It's a design flaw and should be covered.

I meant more along the lines of, it's misfiring, it's out of warranty... K, cool, I'll pay for new plugs...

Oops we broke it off and now it needs a new head.

Nice job fellas ? You broke it off in the head, you fix it IMO. Warranty or not. You caused the damage Mr. Expert. (Sure I'll still pay for a set of plugs, here's the $28, but the new head and the labor are on you)

If they stop and say hey it's seized and we can't get it out and here's the cost out of warranty that's different. You're bringing the issue and the options to the customer for a decision.

Soon as they put a wrench on it and break something it's on them to fix it is how I see it. If I didn't get a choice on the solution I'm not paying for it if somebody bungles it.

 

[Loweredon33s]

Just so everybody understands, the CEL, Check Engine Light, is always going to be in reference to a change in emissions. It could be something that loads up the CATs, oil in the cylinders changing the HCs, a drop in 02, a hike in 02...anything outside the parameters set. And it's government mandated. The manufacturers couldn't care less. The number of things that influence the emissions is huge. But the check engine light is always emissions related. If the trans is locking up, pulling down the engine to the point where it's over heating, that could throw a check engine light, but it wasn't because the ECU saw a trans issue, it's because of the engine temps. Make sense?
A bad plug, bad coil (coils hate heat, the worst idea ever is "coil on plug" but boy howdy, it sure does keep those vehicles coming back to the dealer!!) significantly impact emissions obviously, but so would oil in the exhaust, a fouled O2 sensor, a failed O2 sensor, anything that impacts that 02 parameter is going to kick out the Check engine code.

I'll clarify because I believe we agree. It's a design flaw and should be covered.

I meant more along the lines of, it's misfiring, it's out of warranty... K, cool, I'll pay for new plugs...

Oops we broke it off and now it needs a new head.

Nice job fellas ? You broke it off in the head, you fix it IMO. Warranty or not. You caused the damage Mr. Expert. (Sure I'll still pay for a set of plugs, here's the $28, but the new head and the labor are on you)

If they stop and say hey it's seized and we can't get it out and here's the cost out of warranty that's different. You're bringing the issue and the options to the customer for a decision.

Soon as they put a wrench on it and break something it's on them to fix it is how I see it. If I didn't get a choice on the solution I'm not paying for it if somebody bungles it.

if the plug is rusted and breaks, it isn’t anyone’s fault necessarily. They wouldn’t have broken it if it wasn’t damaged by rust, they didn’t cause the rust and it was going to break on anyone. Wisdom would be for them to have warned them about the potential of breakage and the possibility of additional labor. Ford built it but the dealership is NOT Ford. The owner of the vehicle is responsible for maintenance, unfortunately that means they are responsible for the elements and the damage caused by them. It’s a maintenance issue, nobody tried to break it, nobody tried to make water rust the plug and in this situation the dealership is simply performing a repair on a used vehicle that has multiple problems. You have to understand that nobody wants to have to extract a plug, it’s not a good paycheck. It wasn’t malicious or even careless (assuming the shop is reputable and has decent technicians of course) It’s not their fault it broke, they are not responsible for that. If they broke a brand new plug then it’s a different story altogether. The real problem is that plugs shouldn’t be kept in there that long.
Change them early and be free of worry!

 

[LawnMM]

The owner of the vehicle is responsible for maintenance, unfortunately that means they are responsible for the elements and the damage caused by them.

Except their own manual says the plugs are good to 150k miles.

Again, if it's galvanized itself in there and needs a new head, or that's even potentially the solution... tell me. Wisdom as you mentioned.

If you decide to proceed and bust something that then requires $3k worth of parts and labor don't come to me with your hand out after the fact expecting me to pay for the mistake.

I expect the option to say nope, stop there I'll take it to somebody else I trust to do this right if I'm looking at a potential big money solution to what should be a $30 set of plugs.

Think about how stupid that sounds. I asked for a $30 set of plugs and now I'm on the hook for $3k in parts and labor (guess) for a new head/labor and nobody took a minute to warn me? Are you kidding? Talk to the manager, talk to Ford, talk to whomever you want, that's so wildly inappropriate I'd be calling an attorney and I freaking HATE attorneys.

The only reason we're even mildly tolerant of any of it is we're hip to the issue from this forum ??‍?‍?

 

[Loweredon33s]

Except their own manual says the plugs are good to 150k miles.

Again, if it's galvanized itself in there and needs a new head, or that's even potentially the solution... tell me. Wisdom as you mentioned.

If you decide to proceed and bust something that then requires $3k worth of parts and labor don't come to me with your hand out after the fact expecting me to pay for the mistake.

I expect the option to say nope, stop there I'll take it to somebody else I trust to do this right if I'm looking at a potential big money solution to what should be a $30 set of plugs.

Think about how stupid that sounds. I asked for a $30 set of plugs and now I'm on the hook for $3k in parts and labor (guess) for a new head/labor and nobody took a minute to warn me? Are you kidding? Talk to the manager, talk to Ford, talk to whomever you want, that's so wildly inappropriate I'd be calling an attorney and I freaking HATE attorneys.

The only reason we're even mildly tolerant of any of it is we're hip to the issue from this forum ??‍?‍?

The dealership is just a shop like any other when you don’t have warranty. They did not build it or design it or anything like that. They are not Ford. 150k? No Ford maintenance schedule recommends plugs at 150k. They do “recommend” at 100k and that is a general recommendation. I’m not exactly defending anyone but I’m trying to explain why it isn’t anyone’s problem but the owner after warranty. If you had a problem with your house and the contractor went to do the job only to find hidden termite damage whose problem would it be? Yes, 100% the service department needs to clarify and pre warn properly and if there is a problem they should involve the owner right away but it is not on them to eat a bunch of money because they are repairing a condition they did not cause.

 

[Tremorky]

I’m almost afraid to look at mine. I park with the nose uphill but the car wash may be a different story. Thinking this truck will find a new home if there’s rust in the well.

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