Ping when cold

[seasprite]

Been noticing a knocking only when the engine is cold under moderate acceleration 2.5k to 3 rpm. And no its not a lower end knock. I'm running 91 non ethanol gas. No codes and I have forscan so I can check some PIDs to see what is going on but don't know every PID I should check. I have checked some but don't have service data to see whats a normal range or substituted values until engine is warm?
I did check fuel trims and temp sensors.

Here are a couple of screen shots one is at 42sec after start. The second one almost 5 min in.

The IAT13 and IAT21 I don't think they exist on this engine?

Any of you experience this and did you correct it and how?

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[Rp930]

Video?

 

[seasprite]

Video?

I can try and see if the phone will pick it up, but I have my doubts. May try it in gear under a load and if I can produce it in my driveway.

 

[9zero1790]

pings are most often fuel related. other things can cause it of course but to start simple -possible bad gas? maybe fuel filter is getting clogged up? Try a different gas station with 93 or whatever the highest octane is you can get in the area, see if it improves? Maybe plugs are needing a change?

 

[airline tech]

Using the Posted PID Data: I see this

If this engine was started cold, after sitting overnight, you have a ECT sensor that is reading higher temps, than actual and the system is designed to use IAT or CHT (Cylinder Head) as its reference temp. (In open loop) Engine Cold - Uses IAT as Ref Temp, the system does a self-test at every engine start, uses IAT momentarily then switches to the ECT as its Ref Temp if working correctly and no-fault codes.
In closed Loop - Engine Warmed Up - Uses CHT as Reference Temp if ECT fails, overheat protection.

EDIT:
After posting I noted that after 42 seconds, you were already in (Closed Loop) , so monitor the O2S11 - Front O2 sensor, and ensure its not lazy, it should be switching rapidly (Low to High)
after engine is at operating temp. I think it should take longer than 42 seconds to switch to closed loop.

The IAT and ECT should match closely - So if did sit overnight - ECT. (Cold Start)
The ECT is located behind the RF - Wheel Fender Liner, however you might be able to snake your hand down to access it. (IDK)
I would at least reseat the connector on it.
Per the manual, remove the fender cover, but I actually think its on top of the engine. (Would have to look)

The reason for the Ping, is the Engine thinks its warmer than it actually is, and removes Open Loop, parameters, since you have no codes relating to the ECT, it is not picking up an issue and still relying only on the ECT input.
Noted by the High STFT of (-10.94) this is a Rich Trim, PCM is subtracting Fuel, to get the LTFT to near (0) but at least it lowered after 5 minutes so that is a good point to note.

One PID to add for view - CHT-1 = Cylinder Head Temp and CHT-2 = Exhaust Manifold Temp
Compare ECT to CHT-1, IAT 1 and IAT 2, and Ambient Air Temp should match and sitting from a cold start.

If all of those check to be good, then dig into a P0172 Code, as this would be more detailed of possibilities on your Ping, Leaking Injector, Evap Purge Valve, o2 Sensor etc. This is where the
MAPT - will play a big part as a possibility - ensure that the temp readings are climbing on that and it's not a dead reading. (IAT2 and IAT12)
The MAPT plays a big role in fuel delivery.

However, you need to see the IAT temps come up after engine is a operating temperature, I am only noting this here as after 5 minutes and 153 deg ECT, they should be reading higher, but this was only after 5 minutes, so bring engine to temp and doublecheck those PIDs, Moreso the IAT2 reading as the MAPT sits on the engine.
.
IAT and IAT11 - Tie with the IAT - In the intake duct on the air filter housing

IAT2 and IAT12 - Tie with the MAPT (Map Sensor with integrated temp sensor) - Sensor on the R/H side of the engine

PID Data can be misleading sometimes as this leads you to believe that you have more sensors than there actually is.
Like IAT and IAT11, these are the same sensor IAT11 = Bank 1 Sensor 1 and the other thing is the PCM is programmed with the Data, and some Scanners will obscure the Data that is not actually valid for the truck, now some such as Forscan displaying a default data PID (-40) due to no sensor installed (Nothing to Read) IAT13 and IAT21, so this will mislead you to think a bad sensor when there is not one installed.

Again, the above is only noted, since not confirmed of (Cold Eng Start) readings, I am only posting what I see and suspect.

 

[Rp930]

The least likely time to “ping” is cold. I doubt it Is pre ignition. How quickly does it go away? Nothing in the numbers looks far enough off to cause anything like that. Oil condition, proper weight? Maybe an injector spraying incorrectly?

I would definitely try another brand of fuel. Non ethanol might be getting stale at the station.

 

[seasprite]

Using the Posted PID Data: I see this

If this engine was started cold, after sitting overnight, you have a ECT sensor that is reading higher temps, than actual and the system is designed to use IAT or CHT (Cylinder Head) as its reference temp. (In open loop) Engine Cold - Uses IAT as Ref Temp, the system does a self-test at every engine start, uses IAT momentarily then switches to the ECT as its Ref Temp if working correctly and no-fault codes.
In closed Loop - Engine Warmed Up - Uses CHT as Reference Temp if ECT fails, overheat protection.

EDIT:
After posting I noted that after 42 seconds, you were already in (Closed Loop) , so monitor the O2S11 - Front O2 sensor, and ensure its not lazy, it should be switching rapidly (Low to High)
after engine is at operating temp. I think it should take longer than 42 seconds to switch to closed loop.

The IAT and ECT should match closely - So if did sit overnight - ECT. (Cold Start)
The ECT is located behind the RF - Wheel Fender Liner, however you might be able to snake your hand down to access it. (IDK)
I would at least reseat the connector on it.
Per the manual, remove the fender cover, but I actually think its on top of the engine. (Would have to look)

The reason for the Ping, is the Engine thinks its warmer than it actually is, and removes Open Loop, parameters, since you have no codes relating to the ECT, it is not picking up an issue and still relying only on the ECT input.
Noted by the High STFT of (-10.94) this is a Rich Trim, PCM is subtracting Fuel, to get the LTFT to near (0) but at least it lowered after 5 minutes so that is a good point to note.

One PID to add for view - CHT-1 = Cylinder Head Temp and CHT-2 = Exhaust Manifold Temp
Compare ECT to CHT-1, IAT 1 and IAT 2, and Ambient Air Temp should match and sitting from a cold start.

If all of those check to be good, then dig into a P0172 Code, as this would be more detailed of possibilities on your Ping, Leaking Injector, Evap Purge Valve, o2 Sensor etc. This is where the
MAPT - will play a big part as a possibility - ensure that the temp readings are climbing on that and it's not a dead reading. (IAT2 and IAT12)
The MAPT plays a big role in fuel delivery.

However, you need to see the IAT temps come up after engine is a operating temperature, I am only noting this here as after 5 minutes and 153 deg ECT, they should be reading higher, but this was only after 5 minutes, so bring engine to temp and doublecheck those PIDs, Moreso the IAT2 reading as the MAPT sits on the engine.
.
IAT and IAT11 - Tie with the IAT - In the intake duct on the air filter housing

IAT2 and IAT12 - Tie with the MAPT (Map Sensor with integrated temp sensor) - Sensor on the R/H side of the engine

PID Data can be misleading sometimes as this leads you to believe that you have more sensors than there actually is.
Like IAT and IAT11, these are the same sensor IAT11 = Bank 1 Sensor 1 and the other thing is the PCM is programmed with the Data, and some Scanners will obscure the Data that is not actually valid for the truck, now some such as Forscan displaying a default data PID (-40) due to no sensor installed (Nothing to Read) IAT13 and IAT21, so this will mislead you to think a bad sensor when there is not one installed.

Again, the above is only noted, since not confirmed of (Cold Eng Start) readings, I am only posting what I see and suspect.

I'm going to rerun the data capture with the PIDs you suggested. I looked at the data before engine start and ECT was reporting 34 F which is in line with the IAT temps. As far as loop status, it went closed loop at 25 sec I'll post a couple of screen shots. Do you know if there is an octane pid and or alcohol pid. I have seen on other makes that the alcohol content sensor can cause issues and need to be reset.

 

[seasprite]

The least likely time to “ping” is cold. I doubt it Is pre ignition. How quickly does it go away? Nothing in the numbers looks far enough off to cause anything like that. Oil condition, proper weight? Maybe an injector spraying incorrectly?

I would definitely try another brand of fuel. Non ethanol might be getting stale at the station.

I agree, I'm pretty sure its a ping BUT this is my first 4cyl, and turbo, and DI engine so I do have a lot of learning to do with engine and its operation.
I'm wondering about the short term fuel trims going negative when long term even shows negative at times. Don't know if this is a method to get the operating temps up to normal quickly?
Soon as the engine is up to operating temps the ping is gone.
Going to record some more pids today but ambient temps are a lot warmer today so we'll see

Oil has 3k on it mobile1 5w-30 full synthetic
I will say this the HP fuel pump is extra noisy when first started but after a minute or so it will quiet down and the second it does the engine shudders for brief second and then runs normal. But from the reading on here this sounds normal.
Might try some injector cleaner and see but the fuel trims pulling gas away like its running rich has me stumped

 

[Rp930]

I agree, I'm pretty sure its a ping BUT this is my first 4cyl, and turbo, and DI engine so I do have a lot of learning to do with engine and its operation.
I'm wondering about the short term fuel trims going negative when long term even shows negative at times. Don't know if this is a method to get the operating temps up to normal quickly?
Soon as the engine is up to operating temps the ping is gone.
Going to record some more pids today but ambient temps are a lot warmer today so we'll see

Oil has 3k on it mobile1 5w-30 full synthetic
I will say this the HP fuel pump is extra noisy when first started but after a minute or so it will quiet down and the second it does the engine shudders for brief second and then runs normal. But from the reading on here this sounds normal.
Might try some injector cleaner and see but the fuel trims pulling gas away like its running rich has me stumped

The fuel trim numbers are very small. I don’t see anything out of the ordinary with them. If you had an air leak which would more likely cause a ping as lean it would be adding fuel. In my opinion the numbers and screen shown aren’t telling you anything.

First step- switch fuel. That non alcohol fuel could be sitting in the ground a long time. Try a completely different station.

 

[airline tech]

I will say this the HP fuel pump is extra noisy when first started but after a minute or so it will quiet down and the second it does the engine shudders for brief second and then runs normal. But from the reading on here this sounds normal.
----
This may be an indicator, of your issue.
Possibly, HP Fuel Pump (Pressure Regulator) function of the pump
You might try, getting the HP Pump to trigger prime a second time before you start it, just to see if it makes any difference.
or
Leaking Fuel Injector - (After Shut Down) - Dripping Fuel into Cylinder, so this would possibly be the high (- STFT) at start up and the cause of your noisy HP Pump as it creates extra work due to open pintle on the injector.
Once injector gets warmed up, injector operates normally, and your issue disappears.

 

[airline tech]

Just a FYI, for checking Fuel Rail Pressure - PID Specs
Now yes, the HP Fuel Pump is noisy, but does it sound any different than when you first took delivery of the truck?

I found the PID specs - just in case this would help - As this would show if the HP pump is operating correctly.

FRP - Fuel Rail Pressure
KOEO-343 PSI - 2.37 KPA (KOEO = Key on Engine off)
Hot Idle - 213 PSI - 2.13 KPA
30 MPH -1898 PSI - 13.09 KPA
55 MPH - 2947 PSI - 2032 KPA

If that is good, then look at Knock Counters
KNK CNTR CYL 1 through CYL 6, separate PID for each cylinder - Should be (0)
This will show the offending cylinder (injector) if an issue or even a weak coil when cold

As far as Misfire Monitor check if system is reporting any misfires - through the PID Misfire Monitor
If I recall Ford displays the PID differently than GM, with GM you can monitor the cylinder live data, but Ford only reports if a misfire is detected on any cylinder.
Misfire Monitor- will detect a misfire event, but it depends on the number events before it will detect an issue major enough to generate a fault (P0300, P0301 Etc)

All of this is possibly related to the Fuel you are using, as others have suggested try another brand. But at least in the meantime you can check these PIDs for anything abnormal.

The PIDS related to Octane Are:

Octane R LRND (%) Should be (0%) or close to it


FF_INF - (%) (Flex Fuel) - Flex Fuel Engines Only
FF_LRND (Mode) - Yes or No (Flex Fuel) - Flex Fuel Engines Only

 

[Wytchdctr]

Mine makes ping like sounds when ambient is 51-58 degrees regardless of engine temp, heat soak, etc. I got all sort of advice it was the tune (did it stock so not a LMS issue... and the dealership said it was normal hpfp noise) and was told it was because I ran 93 and I was dumb... here on this board for running 93 octane. I just learned to live with this thing sounding like crap. Well... that and I'm about to throw exhaust on it to drown out the stupid.

That said. I wish you the best of luck getting anyone to give you a solid solution. Dealer or forum. The forum fixed the second of my annoying bird like noises with the dealer fixing the first.. so .. there is hope. (No smartass)

 

[ctechbob]

Probably what has been described in these threads:

https://www.ranger5g.com/forum/threads/engine-rattle.21658/

https://www.ranger5g.com/forum/threads/intermittent-engine-rattle-under-moderate-acceleration.8732/

 

[seasprite]

The fuel trim numbers are very small. I don’t see anything out of the ordinary with them. If you had an air leak which would more likely cause a ping as lean it would be adding fuel. In my opinion the numbers and screen shown aren’t telling you anything.

First step- switch fuel. That non alcohol fuel could be sitting in the ground a long time. Try a completely different station.

Thursday is my normal fuel up day so I went to a different station. Just think these modern day engines on edge anyways. Timing can be a cause as well. But giving a temp relation I doubt it that

 

[seasprite]

Just a FYI, for checking Fuel Rail Pressure - PID Specs
Now yes, the HP Fuel Pump is noisy, but does it sound any different than when you first took delivery of the truck?

I found the PID specs - just in case this would help - As this would show if the HP pump is operating correctly.

FRP - Fuel Rail Pressure
KOEO-343 PSI - 2.37 KPA (KOEO = Key on Engine off)
Hot Idle - 213 PSI - 2.13 KPA
30 MPH -1898 PSI - 13.09 KPA
55 MPH - 2947 PSI - 2032 KPA

If that is good, then look at Knock Counters
KNK CNTR CYL 1 through CYL 6, separate PID for each cylinder - Should be (0)
This will show the offending cylinder (injector) if an issue or even a weak coil when cold

As far as Misfire Monitor check if system is reporting any misfires - through the PID Misfire Monitor
If I recall Ford displays the PID differently than GM, with GM you can monitor the cylinder live data, but Ford only reports if a misfire is detected on any cylinder.
Misfire Monitor- will detect a misfire event, but it depends on the number events before it will detect an issue major enough to generate a fault (P0300, P0301 Etc)

All of this is possibly related to the Fuel you are using, as others have suggested try another brand. But at least in the meantime you can check these PIDs for anything abnormal.

The PIDS related to Octane Are:

Octane R LRND (%) Should be (0%) or close to it


FF_INF - (%) (Flex Fuel) - Flex Fuel Engines Only
FF_LRND (Mode) - Yes or No (Flex Fuel) - Flex Fuel Engines Only

Just a quick update, I did check the CHT but forscan only showed CHT2 as a pid selection and it was inline with the other temp sensors. I'm still looking through the data and will update later. I will say this I only noticed one ping yesterday as I was accelerating to get on the HWY. Beginning to wonder as air temps go up if this will disappear until fall or winter. I will check the HP fuel pump out and other pids you pointed out and thanks for the service data. Wife's birthday today so might be a day or so before I update

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