Transmission Issues

[oneminddoc]

Should read PCM, not ECU . Its better in terms of the stumbling, still seems to search for gears. I can live with it.

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[DavidR]

when you say searches for gears, which i hear often on here, does that mean it picks them at random, or does its intended designed purpose with a 10 speed gearbox which is to find the most fuel efficient gear for the current conditions?
Which is what mine does, all the time, quite smoothly, unless I'm on the freeway where it happily settles down.

Same here. A 10-speed is going to change gears more often, that's what it's supposed to do. It's a problem if it's rapidly switching back and forth between two gears, but I rarely see it do that. Every once in a while, it will get a little confused due to quick changes of the accelerator pedal and have a rough or clunky shift, but every car I've owned with an auto trans did that occasionally.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

Same here. A 10-speed is going to change gears more often, that's what it's supposed to do. It's a problem if it's rapidly switching back and forth between two gears, but I rarely see it do that. Every once in a while, it will get a little confused due to quick changes of the accelerator pedal and have a rough or clunky shift, but every car I've owned with an auto trans did that occasionally.

Hi David,

Yep! It is quite difficult to calibrate for a backout shift... The old A4LD was terrible for backout shifts for many years before the calibrators got their arms around the problem...

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

 

[DavidR]

Hi David,

Yep! It is quite difficult to calibrate for a backout shift... The old A4LD was terrible for backout shifts for many years before the calibrators got their arms around the problem...

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

True. When the A4LD in our '93 finally gave out at ~220,000 miles, we had it rebuilt by a guy who had been rebuilding them for over 20 years. He said that some of the components have changed to address some of the rough/clunky shifting issues. It has definitely been better since then. There was a sliver lining to having the transmission die!

I'm sure it's better today with "fly by wire" and more things being controlled by software, but there's probably still some point where the hardware limits what you can do.

 

[Pathung]

Okay..Another Back Story:

We introduced that Saleen Ranger to racing. It was 1987, I built the Rangers but I knew that the old TK 4 speed box was being replaced with a new Mazda 5 speed. So over the winter I send the new transmissions to the team. They were not in production at the time but the transmissions would be hitting production the following model year. Call this prove out. We were at Sears Point Raceway in early April of the 1988 model year. The trucks when out for the first practice session and in a few laps , George Follmer,who with whch I worked closely, came in with the shiftier on the floor. Steve Saleen followed with the same problem.
Omg! What is going on, so we dived into changing transmissions for new ones. Next secession on track produced the same results. Cripe! What is going on, so I took one of the failed transmissions top cover to peer into the gear box. To my amazement the boxes were pristine. What was going on???? So I examined the shiftier...Same... pristine. I sat with the gear box in my lap.
Then the lightbulb came on. The three shift rails were inside the gear case were out in space, and what was happening was that the rails would spread apart if the gear lever was not exactly positioned to engage the next shift rail. Eureka! I had an idea of what happened. So up to one of the track shop at the race track and we welded in aluminum spacers to the outside of the 1 - 2 and 5 - Reverse Shift rails to keep the rails from deflecting sideways. We put the new modified transmission in to the trucks for the race and there were no missed shifts. I had the fix, so called back to the transmission supervisor at Ford. He, in turn, called Mazda and relayed the information. Mazda duplicated the concern and verified my 'fix". They revised the top cover to include my weldments and before production, all transmissions were reworked before production.

So, Racing can and does improve the breed...

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

That's a great story, Phil, thanks for posting, and really glad to know that we have a true expert here in the forum. I frequent Sears Pt. Raceway quite a bit, but I don't race Fords, instead I race an Alfa.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

That's a great story, Phil, thanks for posting, and really glad to know that we have a true expert here in the forum. I frequent Sears Pt. Raceway quite a bit, but I don't race Fords, instead I race an Alfa.

I was in Formula SuperVee...

My only experience with Sears Pt. was when Steve Saleen rented the track for a practice for the Escort Endurance series and he brought the trucks as well, so we got plenty of lap time around Sears in the racetrucks....really liked that track!

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

 

[Chris C.]

I have the same exact problem, and cannot get Ford to acknowledge it.

 

[2.7EcoBoost]

Should read PCM, not ECU . Its better in terms of the stumbling, still seems to search for gears. I can live with it.

Give it a little time to learn it's adaptive strategy after the recal. I am overly impressed with the 10 speed in my truck. The first 1,000 or so miles, I didn't run it very hard, but felt like it hung in gear a little long when I did some moderate acceleration runs. Very smooth from 1000+ miles to current 6k. I was afraid it would shift harsh, hunt for gears etc, but man this thing impresses me.

 

[t4thfavor]

Give it a little time to learn it's adaptive strategy after the recal. I am overly impressed with the 10 speed in my truck. The first 1,000 or so miles, I didn't run it very hard, but felt like it hung in gear a little long when I did some moderate acceleration runs. Very smooth from 1000+ miles to current 6k. I was afraid it would shift harsh, hunt for gears etc, but man this thing impresses me.

Mine still acts similarly at 19K miles. The feeling many describe as "hunting for gears", I think is explained as it's down shifting 4-5 gears instead of the traditional 1-2 gears. Mine still behaves oddly at low speeds, usually when going from coasting to accelerating. I think it's just a characteristic of the programming used being more suited to a heavier truck (The F150).

 

[DavidR]

Give it a little time to learn it's adaptive strategy after the recal. I am overly impressed with the 10 speed in my truck. The first 1,000 or so miles, I didn't run it very hard, but felt like it hung in gear a little long when I did some moderate acceleration runs. Very smooth from 1000+ miles to current 6k. I was afraid it would shift harsh, hunt for gears etc, but man this thing impresses me.

I agree with this in that I've also been overall impressed with the 10-speed. My only complaint is slow response to manual shifts, but I can accept that that's normal since it's probably aimed at reducing wear. What's concerning is that while most of us are seeing good results, we can't ignore the possibility that there are some actual bad ones, and Ford seems reluctant to deal with them. Sure, they'll deal with it if it completely craps out, but there are going to be some intermediate cases that they shouldn't just brush off, IMHO.

 

[CoMtnRanger]

I guess I'm the exception.... mine was rough at first. They all should be. By 4K miles it had learned my driving and seems fairly smooth. Any adaptive system is a little rough before it has amassed enough consistent repetitions. Consistent being the key word. Which leads me to a point many may be unfamiliar with. Adaptive systems look for repetitive patterns, once they identify those patterns they start to smooth out the system. If my driving is erratic enough I can defeat an adaptive learning system (it will simply default to a base program).

The base program for the Ranger seems focused on economy, which makes for early shifts and lugging, along with occasional gear hunting. Now that my truck has been driven consistently for a few thousand miles I'm not feeling the lugging, and often don't even feel the shift unless my acceleration is hard during passing, and haven't experienced gear hunting since 1.5K miles. Once I established a consistent driver baseline the computer smoothed things out and still accommodates rapid acceleration, rapid braking, and processes corner entry and exit speed variances with more civility and without lurches or hunting for gears.

I think Ford should put a section in the Owners Manual explaining how the adaptive transmission learns and what to expect, because many people misunderstand the technology. Adaptive systems will accommodate changes but if there is no repetition there is insufficient data to begin making appropriate adjustments.

Most of the complaints I saw in the F-150 forums, when queried further by various members, seemed to come back to unreasonable expectations on the part of us drivers - often as we describe erratic driving situations (playing with the turbo, not coming to a complete stop before gunning it through that stop sign, splitting time too often between sport and driving mode when new, inconsistent braking and acceleration, suspension/tire setup changes, etc.).

So, for now anyway, I'll reserve judgement on the Ford 10-speed until I have 10-20K under my belt. It seems to get better with mileage. I'm a hooligan on my motorcycle when the road is free of traffic, but even my motorcycle has rider interventions, 6-axis inertial measurement units managing traction control and throttle based on speed, lean angle, tire slip, etc., invoking wheelie control and a host of other "unsafe" conditions. If I want to loft the front tire, or the rear for that matter, or don't want the throttle limited as I enter/exit corners then I have to shut off the system completely - which is an option! The auto industry is a little behind in technology, there's no "off" mode in automobiles yet. Ford will tell us it's the normal "Drive mode", but then they throw in an adaptive transmission we're required to teach.

 

[DavidR]

Those are all good points, but I would add a few things:

First, taking all that into consideration, perhaps Ford could have chosen an initial condition for their machine learning that is more well-centered. If the vast majority of transmissions are adapting in one direction, and need considerable adaptation to work well, then their initial conditions are probably not set well.

Second, there do seem to be people, such as t4thfavor, who are having issues even after 19K miles. Ford really should take a close look at those cases rather than brush them off as simply not enough adaptive learning. There might be a real problem that needs looking into - manufacturing isn't 100% perfect and there will be some genuinely faulty units. These components have gotten very complex and to make matters worse, there is now variability due to machine learning, but when something seems to go beyond reasonable boundaries, like say 2000-3000 miles, Ford owes their customers some consideration that it could be more than just inadequate adaptation.

Lastly, if t4thfavor's driving is so inconsistent that the algorithm couldn't settle to something useful after 19K miles, then that itself is an issue if it's occurring to more than just one or two people. Once again, it would probably be indicative of a poor initial parameter set. The initial parameter set should be tuned to a reasonable middle ground in case adaptation doesn't work well for some people.

I guess I'm the exception.... mine was rough at first. They all should be. By 4K miles it had learned my driving and seems fairly smooth. Any adaptive system is a little rough before it has amassed enough consistent repetitions. Consistent being the key word. Which leads me to a point many may be unfamiliar with. Adaptive systems look for repetitive patterns, once they identify those patterns they start to smooth out the system. If my driving is erratic enough I can defeat an adaptive learning system (it will simply default to a base program).

The base program for the Ranger seems focused on economy, which makes for early shifts and lugging, along with occasional gear hunting. Now that my truck has been driven consistently for a few thousand miles I'm not feeling the lugging, and often don't even feel the shift unless my acceleration is hard during passing, and haven't experienced gear hunting since 1.5K miles. Once I established a consistent driver baseline the computer smoothed things out and still accommodates rapid acceleration, rapid braking, and processes corner entry and exit speed variances with more civility and without lurches or hunting for gears.

I think Ford should put a section in the Owners Manual explaining how the adaptive transmission learns and what to expect, because many people misunderstand the technology. Adaptive systems will accommodate changes but if there is no repetition there is insufficient data to begin making appropriate adjustments.

Most of the complaints I saw in the F-150 forums, when queried further by various members, seemed to come back to unreasonable expectations on the part of us drivers - often as we describe erratic driving situations (playing with the turbo, not coming to a complete stop before gunning it through that stop sign, splitting time too often between sport and driving mode when new, inconsistent braking and acceleration, suspension/tire setup changes, etc.).

So, for now anyway, I'll reserve judgement on the Ford 10-speed until I have 10-20K under my belt. It seems to get better with mileage. I'm a hooligan on my motorcycle when the road is free of traffic, but even my motorcycle has rider interventions, 6-axis inertial measurement units managing traction control and throttle based on speed, lean angle, tire slip, etc., invoking wheelie control and a host of other "unsafe" conditions. If I want to loft the front tire, or the rear for that matter, or don't want the throttle limited as I enter/exit corners then I have to shut off the system completely - which is an option! The auto industry is a little behind in technology, there's no "off" mode in automobiles yet. Ford will tell us it's the normal "Drive mode", but then they throw in an adaptive transmission we're required to teach.

 

[Cshep102]

The only time the transmission has given me issues was while going down a pretty steep highway. Me and my passenger thought we got our bumper kissed by the driver behind us. This happened one or two more times after the initial jolt. I checked my mirrors following the 2nd/3rd mishap but the car behind was clear off my bumper. We then agreed the 10 speed transmission must be trying to find the right gear. Mind you I am only at ~2k miles with this truck and it hasn't disappointed yet.

@BuckinBronco I think what you may have been feeling was the disengagement of the transmission to shift while going down a steep hill due to the active engine braking. I live on a steep hill (over 20% at the steepest point), and notice the active engine braking every day on my way down. If I have the truck in gear, I'll feel the shift from 2nd to 3rd going down the hill as a noticeable acceleration (will be going 25 at the bottom without touching the accelerator) but if I pop the truck in neutral while stopped at the top, there's no hiccup, and I'm doing a solid 45 by the bottom of the hill. This is without tow mode engaged, and seems to be different than the hill decent control that you get when you engage tow mode, as turning off hill decent control in the options menu does not stop it from happening.

Hope that helps.

 

[VAMike]

First, taking all that into consideration, perhaps Ford could have chosen an initial condition for their machine learning that is more well-centered.

I've never seen anything from Ford suggesting that the transmission is "learning how people drive"--quite the opposite, in fact. What it does do, from what I've read, is learn the internal characteristics of the transmission to account for manufacturing tolerances and wear. As far as I can tell, all speculation based on the transmission learning driving habits is starting from a false premise.

 

[newmantjn]

First, taking all that into consideration, perhaps Ford could have chosen an initial condition for their machine learning that is more well-centered. If the vast majority of transmissions are adapting in one direction, and need considerable adaptation to work well, then their initial conditions are probably not set well.

How do you know that this isn't the case?

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