Transmission Issues

[DavidR]

How do you know that this isn't the case?

I don't for certain, and I was planning to say that but forgot to :$ . It's more of an assumption based on all of the anecdotes I've seen on here saying, essentially, that these transmissions are supposed to start life shifting badly and then get better with time. There are two ways to interpret that. One is the traditional way, that many mechanical devices start out a bit "stiff" and gradually wear into smoother operation. The way it seems to have been interpreted, however, is that the transmission shifts badly almost by design and is intended to "adapt" into a smoother level of operation. I don't know if that's actually the case even though it's what most folks seem to believe.

I actually think that @VAMike makes a good point in saying that much of the adaptation is to account for manufacturing tolerances.

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[newmantjn]

There are a lot of things that go on with a new powertrain, including the engine and transmission. The engine breaks in and delivers more torque. Friction material in the clutches compresses, changing the end clearance. The mu of the friction material changes, plus there are the aforementioned manufacturing tolerances that need to be taken into account. Additionally, the fluid behaves differently and different temperatures. Then there are environmental considerations, like altitude etc. There is a lot to learn and keep up with.

 

[RedlandRanger]

I don't for certain, and I was planning to say that but forgot to :$ . It's more of an assumption based on all of the anecdotes I've seen on here saying, essentially, that these transmissions are supposed to start life shifting badly and then get better with time. There are two ways to interpret that. One is the traditional way, that many mechanical devices start out a bit "stiff" and gradually wear into smoother operation. The way it seems to have been interpreted, however, is that the transmission shifts badly almost by design and is intended to "adapt" into a smoother level of operation. I don't know if that's actually the case even though it's what most folks seem to believe.

I actually think that @VAMike makes a good point in saying that much of the adaptation is to account for manufacturing tolerances.

I wish I could find where I read that - I believe what @VAMike said is true. It isn't learning driver behavior but adapting to manufacturing variances. The transmission is that sensitive and high tech.

 

[DavidR]

I've never seen anything from Ford suggesting that the transmission is "learning how people drive"--quite the opposite, in fact. What it does do, from what I've read, is learn the internal characteristics of the transmission to account for manufacturing tolerances and wear. As far as I can tell, all speculation based on the transmission learning driving habits is starting from a false premise.

Actually, that's a good point and could be the case. A lot of systems are engineered to do that, especially electronic ones which have been designed to be self-calibrating for years.

Here's what the manual says:

"Automatic Transmission Adaptive
Learning
This feature may increase durability and
provide consistent shift feel over the life
of your vehicle. A new vehicle or
transmission may have firm shifts, soft
shifts or both. This operation is considered
normal and does not affect function or
durability of the transmission. Over time,
the adaptive learning process fully updates
transmission operation."

That's pretty much what you just pointed out. It doesn't actually say that it adapts to the user. It also reinforces the possibility that transmissions which never smooth out might very well be faulty, for example if they are so far out of manufacturing spec that the adaptation can't pull them in.

 

[DavidR]

I wish I could find where I read that - I believe what @VAMike said is true. It isn't learning driver behavior but adapting to manufacturing variances. The transmission is that sensitive and high tech.

I agree with that and just posted a snippet from the manual that concurs with what @VAMike said. Somehow the assumption that it adapts to the user has spread far and wide and most of us haven't bothered to doubt it. It also means that Ford really shouldn't be brushing off these people who's transmissions haven't settled in after 19K miles. The dealers are probably partially responsible for spreading misinformation about the trans adapting to user habits. In some cases, less scrupulous ones may have found something they can hide behind :/

 

[t4thfavor]

Those are all good points, but I would add a few things:

First, taking all that into consideration, perhaps Ford could have chosen an initial condition for their machine learning that is more well-centered. If the vast majority of transmissions are adapting in one direction, and need considerable adaptation to work well, then their initial conditions are probably not set well.

Second, there do seem to be people, such as t4thfavor, who are having issues even after 19K miles. Ford really should take a close look at those cases rather than brush them off as simply not enough adaptive learning. There might be a real problem that needs looking into - manufacturing isn't 100% perfect and there will be some genuinely faulty units. These components have gotten very complex and to make matters worse, there is now variability due to machine learning, but when something seems to go beyond reasonable boundaries, like say 2000-3000 miles, Ford owes their customers some consideration that it could be more than just inadequate adaptation.

Lastly, if t4thfavor's driving is so inconsistent that the algorithm couldn't settle to something useful after 19K miles, then that itself is an issue if it's occurring to more than just one or two people. Once again, it would probably be indicative of a poor initial parameter set. The initial parameter set should be tuned to a reasonable middle ground in case adaptation doesn't work well for some people.

Please keep in mind that the "Adaptive Learning" is not for your driving habits, it's adaptively learning the individual nuances of the transmission assembly and variations in parts/clutches/valves and solenoids. Not the actual driving habits of the person behind the pedal.

The trans should learn those characteristics inside of 1000 miles, and if it doesn't, then there's something off with the programming.



EDIT:Apparently there was another page of replies that talks about this... Always a day late and a dollar short.

 

[DavidR]

Yeah, that point was also brought up here by @VAMike. There seems to be a false perception that has spread quite widely that the transmission adapts to user driving style. I've seen it so often that I just took it to be true. My hunch is that even some dealers are confused and have been helping to spread it, or at least not clarify it well.

In any case, it probably means that the transmissions which are still shifting badly after some reasonable period are possibly faulty and should be looked at under warranty. I'm not sure what that reasonable period is, but it's probably less than the 19k miles that some folks have experienced.

Please keep in mind that the "Adaptive Learning" is not for your driving habits, it's adaptively learning the individual nuances of the transmission assembly and variations in parts/clutches/valves and solenoids. Not the actual driving habits of the person behind the pedal.

The trans should learn those characteristics inside of 1000 miles, and if it doesn't, then there's something off with the programming.



EDIT:Apparently there was another page of replies that talks about this... Always a day late and a dollar short.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

Hi Folks,

Adaptive parameters means that the PCM makes changes, evaluates the changes and then makes changes and evaluates...so on through out the life of the vehicle. First changes may be quite noticeable, but quickly the refinements will likely not be perceived by the driver. It should not be necessary to drive 20,000 miles to get to this level. I have no idea of mileage for when adaptive strategy is no longer detected, but it should not take more than a few months of driving...if that!

best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

 

[DavidR]

Hi Phil,

Yes, from your description and the manual's, I would describe it more as self-calibrating over its lifetime, but Ford uses the word adaptive, which is technically not incorrect, but somehow that term has conjured up something more broad than just self-calibration. A lot of people seem to think it adapts to individual driving style in some broad sense when it's mostly just calibrating against its own manufacturing tolerances and wear.

Oddly enough, there might still be a small kernel of truth to the driving style perception. If you're a lead-foot vs. a hypermiler, it might actually arrive at slightly different calibration points, but it sounds like it's not doing any broad adjustments based on that.

I agree it shouldn't take 20,000 miles. That's why it's a little bothersome to hear that some dealers are brushing off people whose transmissions are shifting badly after both the TSB fix and several thousand additional miles using the excuse that it's normal or still adapting. In addition to increased overall complexity, it looks like adapting to adaptation is something that some dealers haven't quite nailed yet

Hi Folks,

Adaptive parameters means that the PCM makes changes, evaluates the changes and then makes changes and evaluates...so on through out the life of the vehicle. First changes may be quite noticeable, but quickly the refinements will likely not be perceived by the driver. It should not be necessary to drive 20,000 miles to get to this level. I have no idea of mileage for when adaptive strategy is no longer detected, but it should not take more than a few months of driving...if that!

best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

 

[shred5]

Hi Phil,

Yes, from your description and the manual's, I would describe it more as self-calibrating over its lifetime, but Ford uses the word adaptive, which is technically not incorrect, but somehow that term has conjured up something more broad than just self-calibration. A lot of people seem to think it adapts to individual driving style in some broad sense when it's mostly just calibrating against its own manufacturing tolerances and wear.

Oddly enough, there might still be a small kernel of truth to the driving style perception. If you're a lead-foot vs. a hypermiler, it might actually arrive at slightly different calibration points, but it sounds like it's not doing any broad adjustments based on that.

I agree it shouldn't take 20,000 miles. That's why it's a little bothersome to hear that some dealers are brushing off people whose transmissions are shifting badly after both the TSB fix and several thousand additional miles using the excuse that it's normal or still adapting. In addition to increased overall complexity, it looks like adapting to adaptation is something that some dealers haven't quite nailed yet

David You are the voice of reason. I agree Ford should look into it.

As a Colorado owner I know how it goes. The Colorado has issues with the shudder and even if it is a small percentage it is a issue. It is also on other Chevy vehicles too.. Mine has been perfect and I love it so far. I do not have the shudder and I am over 20,000 miles on it.

Chevy can not run away from it no matter how hard they try. It may be a small portion of the trucks but these people make the most noise and is one of the longest threads on the forums and constantly on FB. It is constantly bumped so those looking to buy think it is a bigger issue than it may be. It is even the same posters over and over most of the time. But this has always been my problem with Chevy. My friend had the first model of a certain gen blazer, my parents had a middle year and I had the last of that model. They never fixed the issues from beginning to end. You would think the last year of that gen model the problems would be fixed. Now the same thing with the Colorado and the 2016 all the way to the 2019 still have the issue. One of the reasons I do not trust Chevy long term. Ford to me at least has a recall and takes care of issues. Chevy denies denies and denies.
I love my truck but my lack in trust in Chevy means I do not want to keep my Colorado long term.

My next truck is long term and I want reliability so for me it is interesting to see how Ford handles these issues. I have time to wait and see because I am in no rush to buy yet..

The other thing is there are other threads and some feel it is not the transmission... It almost sounds the same as the driveshaft problem or could it be torque converter shudder?

 

[Floyd]

I have the same problem and i CAN'T get my dealership or salesman to acknowledge it. But it's annoying and unacceptable for a $40,000 vehicle.

I don't have a $40,000 vehicle, I have a $25,000 vehicle without an extra $15,000 spent on electronic toys.
If I go Christmas shopping I could load another $15,000 of electronic toys in the box but it would still be a $25.000 truck.

Kidding aside, I haven't had any trans related issues. As far as shifting...
I find that I have to activate the shift display if I want to know what gear it is in.

I have noticed a shutter occasionally on a cold start-up. I suspect the DI pump sometimes needs to catch up.
Rev the engine to about 1500RPM then back to idle before putting the truck in gear... seems to smooth right out and drive normal.

 

[DavidR]

David You are the voice of reason.

Haha, thanks, though there are many who say the opposite! I can be a serious non-conformist at times, which gets me in trouble.

For the other stuff, yes, I'm hoping to see how Ford handle it in the long term. Some articles I've read say that they are having higher than normal warranty costs, which maybe is a sign that there are some growing pains involved with the large amount of complexity being added in the past half-decade or so.

There's also a balance. There really are some people who have a low tolerance for even small imperfections or normal amounts of variation, and will complain about really small things, and dealers have to somehow manage that. But when I read posts that are something like "The dealer says it's normal but agrees that it's not good", then something is wrong. Maybe there is push-back from Ford on some of these things, dunno. If the dealer's techs think it's not right, then it probably isn't, but maybe their hands are being tied to some degree.

I'm also in it for the long term. Our last Ranger has 260K miles and is still running well. I'm sure this one will last that long, but it remains to be seen whether it will need more repairs over it's lifetime.

 

[t4thfavor]

If the trans is spinning at all in the incorrect direction, it won't engage. I've had a few hard starting shifts, and a few hard 1-3 shifts where it feels like it gets "lazy" and then slams into gear. If it does that too hard, it disengages, and basically goes into N. You have to cease movement, put it in park, stay there for a second or three, and then try to put it in gear again.

I still think it's the transmissions fault, but some of my older vehicles did the same thing once in a while. (Wife's Edge sometimes does it when coming to a stop if you happen to press the gas during a downshift).

 

[newmantjn]

How cold was it today? Was this the first time this truck has seen those temperatures?

 

[t4thfavor]

How cold was it today? Was this the first time this truck has seen those temperatures?

Mine did it last winter (got it early Feb), I got it reprogrammed by the TSB in May, and it's doing it more now as it gets colder.

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