Think I Threw a Rod....

[dtech]

When it comes to appliances, cars, lawn mowers etc.. the question I ask myself is, why should I as the consumer pay extra to cover your poor workmanship ? When I see no warranty (free) or a very short one, it makes me wonder what they know that I don’t

Fyi - I think auto extended warranties are the biggest single chunk of the $120B x warranty revenue stream, some people just routinely buy these extended warranties without reading what they actually cover, it's a lucrative business, I never buy them but I've been able to fix most sh*t myself, and I've recently contemplated dropping insurance my home - just having liability protection- as IMO home owners insurance is in many cases a massive rip off. And warranties that cover all of the appliances and electrical stuff in a home has been a fast growing business.

Portland, Aug. 24, 2020 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- According to the report published by Allied Market Research, the global extended warranty market generated $120.79 billion in 2019, and is estimated to reach $169.82 billion by 2027, registering a CAGR of 7.4% from 2020 to 2027. The report offers an extensive analysis of changing market dynamics, key winning strategies, business performance, major segments, and competitive scenarios.
Increase in awareness and rise in penetration of tablets, laptops, and smartphones drive the growth of the global extended warranty market. However, declining sales of personal computers restrains the market growth. Furthermore, offering of several value added services from insurers with extended warranty is expected to provide new opportunities for market player in the coming years.

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[NeptuneRanger]

Fyi - I think auto extended warranties are the biggest single chunk of the $120B x warranty revenue stream, some people just routinely buy these extended warranties without reading what they actually cover, it's a lucrative business, I never buy them but I've been able to fix most sh*t myself, and I've recently contemplated dropping insurance my home - just having liability protection- as IMO home owners insurance is in many cases a massive rip off. And warranties that cover all of the appliances and electrical stuff in a home has been a fast growing business.

Portland, Aug. 24, 2020 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- According to the report published by Allied Market Research, the global extended warranty market generated $120.79 billion in 2019, and is estimated to reach $169.82 billion by 2027, registering a CAGR of 7.4% from 2020 to 2027. The report offers an extensive analysis of changing market dynamics, key winning strategies, business performance, major segments, and competitive scenarios.
Increase in awareness and rise in penetration of tablets, laptops, and smartphones drive the growth of the global extended warranty market. However, declining sales of personal computers restrains the market growth. Furthermore, offering of several value added services from insurers with extended warranty is expected to provide new opportunities for market player in the coming years.

I agree with everything you said except the homeowner’s insurance. That statement is just crazy. Homeowner policies are bundled a special forms (HO3, HO5) that include liability. It’s not like a car policy where you say liability only please. Also unless you own it outright, your mortgage holder will not be down with your thinking. I won’t get into it in a Ford truck forum, but please think it through.

 

[Doc]

Jeezus ....

 

[D Fresh]

I looked the other day on ye ole world wide web and couldn't find any other major car manufacturer who offers a "tune" like Ford does.

Did I not dig deep enough or is offering a "performance tune" something only Ford does?

If they aren't the first, they're damn close. There are tuning houses that have VERY close relationships with manufacturers, but no actual warrantable tunes offered by the manufacturer that I know of.

The recent movement on the towing front makes the Ford Performance the top choice in my eyes for OTS tunes.

I love you brother but you keep using the word insurance. This is not insurance. This is an extended warranty which a person has a choice to purchase. The reason you may not see this with other tune companies is because they may offer a warranty on their tune service for free. Free equals warranty. Pay for it, equals extended warranty or service contract.

When it comes to appliances, cars, lawn mowers etc.. the question I ask myself is, why should I as the consumer pay extra to cover your poor workmanship ? When I see no warranty (free) or a very short one, it makes me wonder what they know that I don’t.

What I see here, is that the extended limited warranty was created to overcome the objection some reticent buyers would have that a crappy tune would ruin the engine and void the factory warranty. This paper is subordinate to the factory and secondary third party extended warranties. It is very narrow in scope in that it remedies only damage caused directly by the tune. Just the pricing alone let’s you know that. Regardless of what was in the mind of the buyer and what was verbally said by the seller, the written signed contract is what rules under provision 7f of their document.

You're absolutely right. Not sure where I picked it up, but it is indeed a warranty.

You're second point is key, as I would imagine Stage 3 will be looking at everything to determine if indeed the tune is at fault.

Termed as "tune insurance" or "tune warranty" it is still a one of a kind offering in the aftermarket performance tuning industry.

It's even stranger, to me, when you consider that the ONLY product Stage 3 offers an extended warranty on is 5 Star tunes.

I know NOTHING at all about engine mods and tunes, zilch, zippo nada, zero.

I want no one with a laptop and a cable anywhere near my truck period. I trust Ford did the thorough job figuring out the long haul optimization of the engine and as I keep trucks for 10 to 15 years, if it works I ain’t gonna fix it.

For everybody else, if you only remember one thing from this 50 page thread... READ your warranties and if you pay for and sign a third party document, READ it first.

A smart man knows his limitations.

Over the last decade or so, as turbo engines have become more popular ECU tuning has become a dangerous game. There are a lot of newer players and one must do their research if they want to play.

 

[glennsamuel32]

More on warranty...


Posted by Jason Locke on 3/18/2014 to Informative Articles

By far and away the most frequently asked question when it comes to performance tuning of a given vehicle's Powertrain Control Module (PCM) or Engine Control Unit (ECU) is "will this void my warranty?" The short answer is yes, unequivocally and absolutely yes. Performance software tuning of your vehicle's computer will practically always void and Powertrain Warranty that your car or truck may or may not have. "But Stage 3," you say, "what about the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act, running the vehicle through a drive cycle before I go into the dealer, or running down my battery to hide my tune?" There are some ways where you're still protected and ways that you can possibly hide a performance tune from the prying eyes of Ford and your dealership. So the long answer to the initial question is "yes, but..." The fact is that the whole tuning/warranty situation is pretty sticky and complex, but there is a good reason that we at Stage 3 tell you that your warranty will definitely be voided while the other guys beat around the bush or even lie through their teeth: we're looking out for you and your vehicle's best interest.


https://www.stage3motorsports.com/Stage-3s-Stance-Tuning-Your-Vehicles-Warranty.html

 

[dtech]

I agree with everything you said except the homeowner’s insurance. That statement is just crazy. Homeowner policies are bundled a special forms (HO3, HO5) that include liability. It’s not like a car policy where you say liability only please. Also unless you own it outright, your mortgage holder will not be down with your thinking. I won’t get into it in a Ford truck forum, but please think it through.

thanks, owned the home for 15 yrs, and you in some ways underscore the issue - insurance companies to an extent are allowed to dictate the rules . I cancelled my home owners a few yrs back - had a somewhat difficult time getting companies to issue a policy, a number refused outright - that is a clear indication of how they are allowed to bully the consumer.

 

[NeptuneRanger]

thanks, owned the home for 15 yrs, and you in some ways underscore the issue - insurance companies to an extent are allowed to dictate the rules . I cancelled my home owners a few yrs back - had a somewhat difficult time getting companies to issue a policy, a number refused outright - that is a clear indication of how they are allowed to bully the consumer.

Congrats on owning outright for fifteen years ! Much respect. I don’t want to hijack this thread down a rabbit hole just one brief answer to your specific story. The reason why insurance companies don’t take folks with years of gaps in homeowner coverage is there is no database information on claim history. Not you of course, but some folks buy insurance all of a sudden after several years of gaps on a hunch something may go wrong soon. Say the roof is old and a good windstorm will strip it off. It is an actuarial business decision, not personal. I respect your opinion, just don’t share it.

 

[dtech]

I agree with everything you said except the homeowner’s insurance. That statement is just crazy. Homeowner policies are bundled a special forms (HO3, HO5) that include liability. It’s not like a car policy where you say liability only please. Also unless you own it outright, your mortgage holder will not be down with your thinking. I won’t get into it in a Ford truck forum, but please think it through.

just one other off topic comment and I'm done - in Colorado , Denver area home owners insurance keeps rising annually - I carry minimal coverage. Replaced a 20 yr roof mostly out of pocket as it was on a depreciation schedule, switched to I think a $5k deductible on wind and hail and the roof gets wasted the next year by a hailstorm. With min coverage I'm paying $2.5 k a yr, and that was thoroughly shopped and the least costly. I know people in the ins biz look at it differently, but the roof claims were the only ones I've ever made . I have no quibble with auto - pay a mere $1,200 for 3 vehicles - when I added the Ranger my rate somehow stayed the same. But I do have clean record, no tiks, no accidents.

 

[dtech]

Congrats on owning outright for fifteen years ! Much respect. I don’t want to hijack this thread down a rabbit hole just one brief answer to your specific story. The reason why insurance companies don’t take folks with years of gaps in homeowner coverage is there is no database information on claim history. Not you of course, but some folks buy insurance all of a sudden after several years of gaps on a hunch something may go wrong soon. Say the roof is old and a good windstorm will strip it off. It is an actuarial business decision, not personal. I respect your opinion, just don’t share it.

it was a 3 month gap, I cancelled with allstate because they force one to use their agents and they totally messed up my billing on 2 occasions - was honest to companies about the 3 months lapse and was told - sorry we can't issue a policy if you have a coverage lapse for any reason. Lesson learned - never cancel until you have new policy, companies are inflexible with their rules.

 

[NeptuneRanger]

just one other off topic comment and I'm done - in Colorado , Denver area home owners insurance keeps rising annually - I carry minimal coverage. Replaced a 20 yr roof mostly out of pocket as it was on a depreciation schedule, switched to I think a $5k deductible on wind and hail and the roof gets wasted the next year by a hailstorm. With min coverage I'm paying $2.5 k a yr, and that was thoroughly shopped and the least costly. I know people in the ins biz look at it differently, but the roof claims were the only ones I've ever made . I have no quibble with auto - pay a mere $1,200 for 3 vehicles - when I added the Ranger my rate somehow stayed the same. But I do have clean record, no tiks, no accidents.

My last reply on this topic too, I sell homeowners in Colorado. Your state has some shall we say unique political ways and that has made it way down to the policy language in auto and home products. Much of Colorado as you know has had a significant amount of hail and storm damage on a repetitive basis. Insurance companies are buying new roofs over and over. That got expensive, so yes, in your state, homeowner policies are much higher than others like Arizona.

 

[VAMike]

My last reply on this topic too, I sell homeowners in Colorado. Your state has some shall we say unique political ways and that has made it way down to the policy language in auto and home products. Much of Colorado as you know has had a significant amount of hail and storm damage on a repetitive basis. Insurance companies are buying new roofs over and over. That got expensive, so yes, in your state, homeowner policies are much higher than others like Arizona.

and sleazy contractors go door to door telling people they can get a new roof and bill the insurance company for "hail damage"

 

[Project Midnight]

That's kinda how I'm taking it, also. If they had clear evidence of a mod doing the damage, they should have some sort of detailed report by now, no? And as far as tuning goes, with these motors, the only thing that would really "require" a tune would be a downpipe. The rest of the exhaust or an intake doesn't necessarily need one to work properly. Downpipes and auxiliary fueling definitely do. If he had the tuning done for that, I too would question the "all the mods" theory.

 

[Jason@Stage3]

So, you offer insurance on Icon, MBRP, and Rigid products as well?

We do not offer a WARRANTY on ICON, MBRP, or Rigid, since none of those products can potentially blow a motor and the chances of a bolt-on causing some issue that a dealer wouldn’t handle under the terms of the stock warranty is extraordinarily slim.

The worst that happens with any of those products is breaking a CV or tie rod while ripping around off-road on an ICON-equipped truck and your dealer not wanting to cover it. That is a $500 issue (or a sub $200 issue if you do the work yourself) not a $15000 issue.

The whole thing seems a bit odd. I've been around turbos and tuning for over two decades. I've never once heard of a warranty on a tune, no less offered by a simple vendor. Seems as though there would have been a deeper relationship between the two companies for this to come about.

I do take some issue with us being a "simple" vendor. We’re one of the top places online for Ranger, F150, and Super Duty parts, and factoring in how well we rank, we sell more tunes and have a better financial structure than many of our vendors (which is why we often put out better media and reviews than even they).

To an "outsider" their absence is weird. Of course they should have curiosity about the failure. But there seems to be none here.

Are you saying that OP's engine will be covered regardless of the cause?

Shouldn't an analysis be made of the engine first? What if he did run it out of oil? You still gonna cover it?

We do want a full analysis of the engine, and we don’t just blanket-cover all issues. We have terms and conditions for a reason, and there are a ton of exclusions (not that Project Midnight currently falls under any of those exclusions).

The OP doesn't seem to care what caused it, Ford doesn't seem to care what caused it, 5 Star doesn't seem to care what caused it, do you guys care what caused it?

I mean, if you don't, why is anybody running anything other than 5 Star w/ Stage 3 insurance?

We do care about the failure in that we would like to know more specifics and see if it was actually the tune, or if it was some mechanical or metallurgical flaw that a tune simply exacerbated to the point of failure.

Outside of that, there’s not much to comment on, frankly. At the moment, the dealership is being pretty stingy with specifics, combined with Project Midnight’s work schedule, progress has been a bit slow.”

Insurance is a very regulated business and it takes a lot of financial liquidity and capital to start one up.

This is correct. This is a simple warranty not INSURANCE, which is legally a very different beast.

I appreciate the entrepreneurial spirit and tuning companies trying overcome the voided factory warranty objections by offering a solution. My only advice to Stage 3 and 5 Star is to truly understand your financial exposure and make sure your core businesses are not put at risk if it all hits the fan on the warranty side if there is a problem of scale.

We appreciate the support, and trust us, we collected years worth of data on 5-Star’s tuned trucks before initially launching this for the F150s in 2014.

However, it is very strange. No other tuner of any vehicle type, that I know of, offers such a thing. Or ever has. This is an industry first and we are expected to believe that two separate companies decided to do this out of the blue?

I mean, yes? How does any business agreement happen?

Why on earth would Stage 3 take on this responsibility, financial and otherwise?

What if their "pool" is only $15k, they pay for this dudes engine @ $14k, and somebody else whose tune is insured blows an engine?

Our pool is purposely large, and is also fed by F150 tunes and Expedition to a lesser extent, so the idea of one motor popping and sending the whole program underwater isn’t factual.

Why would Stage 3 even take this on without COMPLETE trust in 5 Star? How would they develop that complete trust in a company they are simply a vendor for?

The whole setup seems fishy is all.

If 5 Star offered their own insurance it would make more sense. However, a completely uninvolved vendor offering it does not. Maybe if you could only buy the insurance from 5 Star if you purchase the tune from them, but that is not the case.

To top it off the "insurance" company for lack of a better term doesn't even seem to care what caused the problem.

We took this endeavor on, because there was money to be made, like any business endeavor. 5-Star over the years proved that their tunes were reliable enough to make this work.

Frankly, we wanted to do something like this for a while, but we didn’t have a tuning company to make it work.

After reading thru the warranty their exposure, in this case, seems to be 10k for the motor and 3k for labor. there are so many outs for Stage 3 in their warranty that I would be surprised if anybody could get their engine warrantied. The OP has to get a Ford dealership to tear it down, and do the repairs. And "All payments of warranted work and repairs will be made only to the Authorized Ford Dealership performing any and all work on the Vehicle. No direct payments will be made to You, the Owner of the Vehicle."

We’re not going to lie, the first thing we do when we’re notified of a motor under our program going up is to run through everything that could possibly exclude a payout on our end.

In spite of that, we’ve paid out more than few of these on the F150 side. This is our first Ranger issue, however.

heres my take

selling the insurance is a money maker in this case.
the tune is bullet proof.
it didnt cause his engine to blow up. (we could debate for days on what mod or what failure did though)
Ford has an out. He did mods, they refuse warranty.
stage 3 and 5 star have a good tune...it didnt cause this, plus all the disclaimers make it near impossible to make a valid claim on the tune.
back to the middle goes the OP....and he has no where to turn now.
what can he do but go to court and fight?

solution: part out whats left, take the loss and move on?

How can ANYBODY involved, let alone bystanders conclude that the tune is "bulletproof?"

Have we seen datalogs? Has anybody? Are there knock events recorded?

How can you say it's the mods when he was limited to the mods that 5 Star sold and received new tunes for said mods.

If you are correct that the mods caused the failure, then it IS indeed the "bulletproof" tune to be blamed. As 5 Star says they accounted for the mods in the new tunes, at that point the tune becomes to blame.

Long story short NOBODY here can possibly say what caused the failure.

It could be a Ford oil pump failure. It could be a problem with the tune not accounting for the downpipe. It could even be a problem with the downpipe install.

I don't have experience with either company myself.

But 5 Star is NOT just a tuner. They are vendors just like Stage 3. They may not offer as many products, but I can't see any insurance expertise that Stage 3 would have over 5 Star.

I can understand why Stage 3 shouldn't comment on the situation, as they are the insurance company in this case. Which is why my questions to them were vague and unrelated to this case. I would think they would be financially vested in determining the root cause of the failure.

However, I would expect 5 Star to chime in in defense of their tune & process. For the sake of their business reputation.

It is fascinating. But in the end I don't think some of us will learn what we want to. Many of us couldn't careless who forks over the money. We just want to know what caused it.

There’s no such thing as a bulletproof tune. Just about every tuning company has had a truck or car running their tunes upchuck a rod or melt a piston at some point.

Torrie at Unleashed, Livernois, Casey at Brew City Boost (hell, I had BCB tune on my Saab, and it was awesome), and others make perfectly fine custom tunes and often tunes that hit higher power numbers than 5-Star.

Even the larger companies who offer canned tunes see motors pop, and no one has popped more F150 EcoBoost motors than Ford itself on their stock tune.

Where 5-Star differs is that they don’t chase those power numbers in our experience. Maybe it’s just from them coming from the truck and RV world where the primary concern is making it home, rather than getting as much power as possible or something else.

We took years of data, sales, and failure rates into account before launching the warranty program in 2014, and its been very successful thus far.

Secondly, the warranty program is less about the whether the tune is "bulletproof" (as much as that is one factor), it’s more about alleviating the fear I the mind of a customer that their dealer/service center won’t do repairs under the stock warranty due to the presence of the tune (regardless if the tune is at fault), which is a perfectly reasonable fear that we sought to address - at additional charge.

 

[Project Midnight]

Good news ? 3 Stage Motorsports is working with me, and does as I do, want a line by line cost for everything needed to justify $14,107 in repairs... Awesome company to work with... ?

 

[D Fresh]

We do not offer a WARRANTY on ICON, MBRP, or Rigid, since none of those products can potentially blow a motor and the chances of a bolt-on causing some issue that a dealer wouldn’t handle under the terms of the stock warranty is extraordinarily slim.

The worst that happens with any of those products is breaking a CV or tie rod while ripping around off-road on an ICON-equipped truck and your dealer not wanting to cover it. That is a $500 issue (or a sub $200 issue if you do the work yourself) not a $15000 issue.



I do take some issue with us being a "simple" vendor. We’re one of the top places online for Ranger, F150, and Super Duty parts, and factoring in how well we rank, we sell more tunes and have a better financial structure than many of our vendors (which is why we often put out better media and reviews than even they).



We do want a full analysis of the engine, and we don’t just blanket-cover all issues. We have terms and conditions for a reason, and there are a ton of exclusions (not that Project Midnight currently falls under any of those exclusions).



We do care about the failure in that we would like to know more specifics and see if it was actually the tune, or if it was some mechanical or metallurgical flaw that a tune simply exacerbated to the point of failure.

Outside of that, there’s not much to comment on, frankly. At the moment, the dealership is being pretty stingy with specifics, combined with Project Midnight’s work schedule, progress has been a bit slow.”




This is correct. This is a simple warranty not INSURANCE, which is legally a very different beast.



We appreciate the support, and trust us, we collected years worth of data on 5-Star’s tuned trucks before initially launching this for the F150s in 2014.




I mean, yes? How does any business agreement happen?



Our pool is purposely large, and is also fed by F150 tunes and Expedition to a lesser extent, so the idea of one motor popping and sending the whole program underwater isn’t factual.



We took this endeavor on, because there was money to be made, like any business endeavor. 5-Star over the years proved that their tunes were reliable enough to make this work.

Frankly, we wanted to do something like this for a while, but we didn’t have a tuning company to make it work.



We’re not going to lie, the first thing we do when we’re notified of a motor under our program going up is to run through everything that could possibly exclude a payout on our end.

In spite of that, we’ve paid out more than few of these on the F150 side. This is our first Ranger issue, however.




There’s no such thing as a bulletproof tune. Just about every tuning company has had a truck or car running their tunes upchuck a rod or melt a piston at some point.

Torrie at Unleashed, Livernois, Casey at Brew City Boost (hell, I had BCB tune on my Saab, and it was awesome), and others make perfectly fine custom tunes and often tunes that hit higher power numbers than 5-Star.

Even the larger companies who offer canned tunes see motors pop, and no one has popped more F150 EcoBoost motors than Ford itself on their stock tune.

Where 5-Star differs is that they don’t chase those power numbers in our experience. Maybe it’s just from them coming from the truck and RV world where the primary concern is making it home, rather than getting as much power as possible or something else.

We took years of data, sales, and failure rates into account before launching the warranty program in 2014, and its been very successful thus far.

Secondly, the warranty program is less about the whether the tune is "bulletproof" (as much as that is one factor), it’s more about alleviating the fear I the mind of a customer that their dealer/service center won’t do repairs under the stock warranty due to the presence of the tune (regardless if the tune is at fault), which is a perfectly reasonable fear that we sought to address - at additional charge.

Thank you for investing some time to answer our, mostly mine, questions.

I think it's very forthright of you to do so in order to help the community as a whole understand the situation. Let alone a nosey outsider like myself.

I will definitely be considering you guys when it comes to my future modifications.

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