EV's... Rolling Blackouts in 115 F. Heat

[D Fresh]

Can you cite any data please?

"Reportedly, 3,840 liters (1,104 gallons) of water are evaporated for the lithium of a battery that has a capacity of 64 kilowatt-hours of capacity. You may think that is a lot of water being evaporated, but according to Fichtner, this is the same amount of water production in 250 grams of beef, 10 avocados, 30 cups of coffee, or even a half of a pair of jeans."

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/05/lithium-production-less-pollution-than-from-11-avocados/

I believe yours is talking about water usage to process lithium for batteries.

While this one is talking about Lithium mining.

A quick search shows this.

https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/#:~:text=The lithium extraction process uses a lot of,and pump salty, mineral-rich brine to the surface.

Two different processes.

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[AzScorpion]

I believe yours is talking about water usage to process lithium for batteries.

While this one is talking about Lithium mining.

Two different processes.

Shows how much I know about this. lol

But don't you still have to use that much water to mine the Lithium? Either way it still sounds like a lot of wasted water. ?‍

 

[DeathRanger]

I believe yours is talking about water usage to process lithium for batteries.

While this one is talking about Lithium mining.

Two different processes.

Understood. and it's a real issue. All large scale production is a massive use of water and resources. The hope is new battery tech requires less materials to achieve better results

 

[FoD]

I believe yours is talking about water usage to process lithium for batteries.

While this one is talking about Lithium mining.

Two different processes.

But, using the same resource to produce the end product, so it is actually cumulative sum, larger tan the individual take outs...

 

[AzScorpion]

Here's a better article showing the pros & cons. Very worth reading.

Everything I read seems to say going EV is/will be worse than ICE. Maybe someday in the distant future it will be better but trying to push it and force it now makes no sense. Sounds like another political ploy from politicians who have their hands in the cookie jar!

https://get-green-now.com/environmental-impact-electric-vehicle-batteries/

To create a lithium battery, you need lithium carbonate. This concentrated material comes as the result of refining a raw “soup” of lithium-containing salts in evaporation pools.

Pools of mineral-rich brine (water with high concentrations of salt) are left to evaporate until the solid salts can be filtered out. The process is water-intensive, using up to 500,000 gallons of water per ton of lithium carbonate produced.

Making matters worse, the process of refining lithium also uses toxic chemicals like hydrochloric acid, which can leach into local ecosystems and habitats.

Researchers in Nevada found that pollution from mining chemicals had effects on fish as far as 150 miles downstream from a lithium mining operation.

The chemicals and mining processes used inevitably lead to water, soil, and air pollution, with major implications for the surrounding landscapes and ecosystems.

 

[D Fresh]

Shows how much I know about this. lol

But don't you still have to use that much water to mine the Lithium? Either way it still sounds like a lot of wasted water. ?‍

For sure it is. I love the irony of your source!

For visualization sakes 500,000 gallons is roughly 2500 cubic yards, a 10x25ft pool that's 10 ft deep. Or enough water to run 4-5 American households for a year.

Understood. and it's a real issue. All large scale production is a massive use of water and resources. The hope is new battery tech requires less materials to achieve better results

Solid state shows promise. But I think many are overestimating the speed at which we'll see it.

But, using the same resource to produce the end product, so it is actually cumulative sum, larger tan the individual take outs...

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Absolutely right.​

 

[Langwilliams]

Seems like the IT guys are the pro EV group. I'm not anti EV, I just don't think it's practical yet. The left is trying to force a shift we aren't ready to make. You can't shift today to technology you HOPE is available in ten years.

I have 2 nephews that are software developers an they love EV's an both own a Tesla. One has 2 (his an hers). They both work from home so that probably helps make it practical.

 

[DeathRanger]

Seems like the IT guys are the pro EV group. I'm not anti EV, I just don't think it's practical yet. The left is trying to force a shift we aren't ready to make. You can't shift today to technology you HOPE is available in ten years.

I have 2 nephews that are software developers an they love EV's an both own a Tesla. One has 2 (his an hers). They both work from home so that probably helps make it practical.

Yep I'm all in for EV's and better tech. I've never wanted my cell phone or computers to run on gasoline. It's inefficient and doesn't make sense. A vehicle is a rolling computer.

Certain EV's are practical and require less maintenance and time than comparable gas vehicle. The Mach-E and F150 lightning are more than capable for most people.

It's funny I work from home too but it's the Ranger that is parked because I couldn't imagine my wife putting $50 in gas every 2 days when we spend $9 max to charge the EV for same mileage.

 

[Trigganometry]

Ok, now for giggles after the revelations of how much water is used now let’s look at the amount of rare earth metals. Mining those is also something to be weary of. Only so much exists and the process of procuring it is very destructive not only to environment but living things too.

The accumulative totals of all necessary materials along processing resources will net us the total carbon footprint to produce one unit currently has us in negative returns over lifetime of service.

 

[DrewKD88]

I'm an IT guy but I'm not into the EV craze. I'm not even sure that you're actually saving any money either. It's a lot like going diesel. The initial cost is higher, diesel requires DEF, EV batteries do not last as long as gasoline engines, oil changes for diesels cost more, fast charging stations for home are an additional cost, range is considerably less for EV's and in my book, time is money. I'm not waiting around for my car to charge when I'm on a trip. For diesel to be worth the cost you would have to put on a lot of miles per year and even with that you may not break even. For EV's to be worth it you would have take away time as a factor as your car is charging overnight or at a charging station while you're doing other things. Plus you would still have to actually drive it many miles per year for it to be cost effective. So far I have only heard of EV's being used with a 0 mile commute since most are working from home as stated in the posts above. That in itself negates the "savings" factor because you're not actually driving the thing.

It's like buying an EV for $50,000 and driving it 1,200 miles per year.
vs
buying a Ranger for $40,000 and driving it 24,000 miles per year.

Which one is the better value and which driver is saving more money?

EV's just are not worth it in my book. What gets me is California trying to shove EV's down everyone's throat. I'm not forcing everyone to buy petroleum based vehicles so what gives California the right to force EV's on us? Just saying.

 

[2ford]

I'm an IT guy but I'm not into the EV craze. I'm not even sure that you're actually saving any money either. It's a lot like going diesel. The initial cost is higher, diesel requires DEF, EV batteries do not last as long as gasoline engines, oil changes for diesels cost more, fast charging stations for home are an additional cost, range is considerably less for EV's and in my book, time is money. I'm not waiting around for my car to charge when I'm on a trip. For diesel to be worth the cost you would have to put on a lot of miles per year and even with that you may not break even. For EV's to be worth it you would have take away time as a factor as your car is charging overnight or at a charging station while you're doing other things. Plus you would still have to actually drive it many miles per year for it to be cost effective. So far I have only heard of EV's being used with a 0 mile commute since most are working from home as stated in the posts above. That in itself negates the "savings" factor because you're not actually driving the thing.

It's like buying an EV for $50,000 and driving it 1,200 miles per year.
vs
buying a Ranger for $40,000 and driving it 24,000 miles per year.

Which one is the better value and which driver is saving more money?

EV's just are not worth it in my book. What gets me is California trying to shove EV's down everyone's throat. I'm not forcing everyone to buy petroleum based vehicles so what gives California the right to force EV's on us? Just saying.

Its all about government control. Now the governor is telling people to not charge their cars for fear of blackout.

 

[Fill]

For sure it is. I love the irony of your source!

For visualization sakes 500,000 gallons is roughly 2500 cubic yards, a 10x25ft pool that's 10 ft deep. Or enough water to run 4-5 American households for a year.



Solid state shows promise. But I think many are overestimating the speed at which we'll see it.

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Absolutely right.​

I think an important distinction to note is that the water used for lithium mining is brine and not fresh water. Yes lithium mining is water intensive, but the water used is not what we would use for drinking or irrigation.

 

[Trigganometry]

I think an important distinction to note is that the water used for lithium mining is brine and not fresh water. Yes lithium mining is water intensive, but the water used is not what we would use for drinking or irrigation.

Brine, or produced water, is a byproduct of oil and gas production. It consists of water from the geologic formation, injection water, oil and salts. Brine has a high salt concentration the ions of the salts negatively affect the site's soil and vegetation, impairing its ability to produce crops and forage. the goal of brine spill remediation is to remove or minimize salts in the soil. The average well in North Dakota produces 18 barrels of brine per barrel of oil and three barrels of brine per barrel of gas.

 

[D Fresh]

I think an important distinction to note is that the water used for lithium mining is brine and not fresh water. Yes lithium mining is water intensive, but the water used is not what we would use for drinking or irrigation.

In regards to South American salar mining you're correct. However, there are concerns of droughts due to freshwater influx once the brine is extracted.

Australia, the world's largest supplier of lithium, chiefly extracts lithium from ore mining of spodumene. A process which also uses a lot of water.

 

[mtbikernate]

screw it all. we should just walk or ride horses

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