E 15 gas

[Floyd]

What happens if you feed a self-driving car E85? SDUI?
................................................................................................................................................
Here is a bit of useful info...

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[WOADKIL]

Hi Phil,

I stand corrected. Fossil fuels are hydrocarbons comprised primarily of the following elements: carbon and hydrogen and some sulfur, nitrogen, oxygen, and mineral matter, and given enough pressure, heat and ignition source anything can be fuel.

Being a mechanical engineer I was looking for “practical” answers to the E15 question to the OP’s question, but being accused by insulting and ignorant ones that I suspect you have no clue what that pI suspect you have no clue what that point could be. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing for those who are capable of comprehending proven data? be. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing for those who are capable of comprehending proven data?, practicality is not what we want to discuss or control.

This thread supports the question from the other thread: Can’t we all get along, especially without insults?

Enjoy!

 

[P. A. Schilke]

What happens if you feed a self-driving car E85? SDUI?
................................................................................................................................................
Here is a bit of useful info...

Hi Floyd,

Yep! What I have been saying via my automotive experience at Ford Truck Engineering.... thanks for showing an independent analysis...

Best,
Phil

 

[DakotaGuy]

Hi Wil,

wannna bet? I, at the time, launched the largest Flex Fuel vehicle production with the 3.0L Ranger in 1999. Every 3.0L Ranger was able to run everything from E0 through E85. When on E85, you could watch your fuel gauge drop like an anvil off a building. Air/fuel ratio for gasoline is 14:1, E85 is 8:1. Engines ran fine. I hated this program but the Federal Government gave fuel economy credits for flex fuel and we, Ford, played the game. About 135,000 vehicles a year for the Flex Fuel Ranger....

See a older Ranger with a Road & Leaf badge under the tailgate Ford Oval....it is a flex fuel vehicle.

Best,
Phil

I had a 2005 Explorer with a 4.0 V6 FFV engine in it. I ran E85 several times in it and it ran great. The only issue like Phil stated is the gas gauge fell quickly. Back in 2005-2008 I was living in the middle of corn country and you could get E85 pretty cheap near the ethanol plants. If I could buy it cheap enough it still worked out as a cost savings. I run E10 in my Ranger 100% of the time.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

Hi Phil,

I stand corrected. Fossil fuels are hydrocarbons comprised primarily of the following elements: carbon and hydrogen and some sulfur, nitrogen, oxygen, and mineral matter, and given enough pressure, heat and ignition source anything can be fuel.

Being a mechanical engineer I was looking for “practical” answers to the E15 question to the OP’s question, but being accused by insulting and ignorant ones that I suspect you have no clue what that pI suspect you have no clue what that point could be. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing for those who are capable of comprehending proven data? be. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing for those who are capable of comprehending proven data?, practicality is not what we want to discuss or control.

This thread supports the question from the other thread: Can’t we all along, especially without insults?

Enjoy!

Hi Wil,

Yep! We had to go to great lengths to get E85 to work in Ranger....different fuel lines...fuel pumps etc and the fuel sensor...alone a $200 item, our cost...but Fuel Economy credits at that time were so precious that the Ford Motor Co. would invest $100 Million for a 0.1 improvement in fuel economy so I had to deal with Ranger Flex fuel. Next year we noodled how to get rid of the fuel sensor and we did it in the EEC IV ECU by creating an algorithm that said...okay the engine is running for shit...how about we tweak this....better but not enough....how about this.... better but not there...how about this....and so on in an iterative process that occured at computer clock speed which is slow by today's standards but was fast enough that the customer was not aware of the algorithm....

Best,
Phil

 

[BassRanger]

IMO going above 10% ethanol will lower both MPG and engine life.
The more Ethanol the greater the effect.
The Ranger owner's manual says NOT to use any fuel with more than 15% ethanol.
5% is a 50% increase.... hardly negligible.

How is E15 going to lower engine life? It is about 3% less energy dense than E10 so a small decrease in fuel economy is possible.

1% to 2% is a 100% increase and perfect example how to be manipulative with statistics.

Ethanol has been in fuel for a LONG time. If it was nearly as harmful as message boards would have you believe, we would expect to see widespread fuel system failures across vehicle lines.

The vast majority of modern vehicles are not going to have any issues running E15 over E10.

 

[WOADKIL]

Hi Wil,

Yep! We had to go to great lengths to get E85 to work in Ranger....different fuel lines...fuel pumps etc and the fuel sensor...alone a $200 item, our cost...but Fuel Economy credits at that time were so precious that the Ford Motor Co. would invest $100 Million for a 0.1 improvement in fuel economy so I had to deal with Ranger Flex fuel. Next year we noodled how to get rid of the fuel sensor and we did it in the EEC IV ECU by creating an algorithm that said...okay the engine is running for shit...how about we tweak this....better but not enough....how about this.... better but not there...how about this....and so on in an iterative process that occured at computer clock speed which is slow by today's standards but was fast enough that the customer was not aware of the algorithm....

Best,
Phil

Hi Phil,

My validations in the medical device world required many points of empirical data for acceptance criteria. How many points did you need to arrive to the acceptable averaged values?

And then the validation of the Ford production and equipment as well!

Good times!

Thanks.

 

[Floyd]

How is E15 going to lower engine life? It is about 3% less energy dense than E10 so a small decrease in fuel economy is possible.

1% to 2% is a 100% increase and perfect example how to be manipulative with statistics.

Ethanol has been in fuel for a LONG time. If it was nearly as harmful as message boards would have you believe, we would expect to see widespread fuel system failures across vehicle lines.

The vast majority of modern vehicles are not going to have any issues running E15 over E10.

We may disagree on oil change intervals or types of oil etc.
I'm sure you have arrived at your conclusions after careful consideration.

So have I.

I am reluctant to discuss this further since giving a simplistic answer would likely send me down a rabbit hole of trying to justify my position. I'm not really up for that, nor do I expect you to spend a thousand words trying to convince me.

But I'll say too much anyway...
The question really is a matter of degree... At 10% we have been able to compensate significantly for the presence of alcohol. As the percentage goes up, so does the difficulty. So much so that in places where pure alcohol is used for passenger car fuel, engine longevity has shown to be reduced by as much as 55%. Now whether engine wear would increase significantly to go from 10% to 15% ethanol would depend pretty much on your definition of "significant".

Analogy...
Suffice it to say that the additional wear from fuel containing ethanol over pure gasoline is clearly and significantly greater than that of using a good parasynthetic over a pure synthetic motor oil.
? (perhaps debatable)

Using pure ethanol would then be more analogous to using a nondetergent straight weight motor oil instead of a modern pure synthetic.

That is the most conciliatory position I am willing to express.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

Hi Phil,

My validations in the medical device world required many points of empirical data for acceptance criteria. How many points did you need to arrive to the acceptable averaged values?

And then the validation of the Ford production and equipment as well!

Good times!

Thanks.

Hi Wil,

We built a fleet of Rangers for the task, about 10 vehicles went to Engine Engineering for calibration development and about a similar number for Truck Engineering as I recall.... Then there was a trial at the assembly plant of another 20 or so and then a sign off drive and if thumbs up, production started...

Best,
Phil

 

[Pirate]

Been pumping exclusively E15 in the Carolinas for two years. No problems. You boomers are quite the sensitive bunch!

 

[JohnnyO]

I've used E15 in the Ranger and my old Sport Trac all the time with no issues. Currently it's 30 cents less. Regular gas here is 10% ethanol anyway.
Stickers on the pumps say to use only in 2001 and newer vehicles.
Based on both personal experience and what I've read, I would say to dump in a bottle of fuel system cleaner at every oil change, I use Chevron Techron.

 

[JohnnyO]

COMMENT:
OP question was this: Does anyone add any additives to combat Ethanol? Or is it a non-issue?

Only needed in small engines like your lawnmower or cars that are rarely driven.
Gas here went to 10% ethanol a few years ago and my mower wouldn't start. Ended up taking it to the shop where they told me that ethanol evaporates from the gas and leaves a gummy residue in the carb since some gas sits in the float bowl. Had to get a new carb. Shop told me to use Sta-Bil in the gas ALL the time, not just for storage. No problems with the mower, snowblower, jet ski, since I started doing that. All vehicles today have fuel injection with high pressure fuel pumps so it's not an issue on a regularly driven vehicle.

 

[JohnnyO]

Hi Wil,

wannna bet? I, at the time, launched the largest Flex Fuel vehicle production with the 3.0L Ranger in 1999. Every 3.0L Ranger was able to run everything from E0 through E85. When on E85, you could watch your fuel gauge drop like an anvil off a building. Air/fuel ratio for gasoline is 14:1, E85 is 8:1. Engines ran fine. I hated this program but the Federal Government gave fuel economy credits for flex fuel and we, Ford, played the game. About 135,000 vehicles a year for the Flex Fuel Ranger....

See a older Ranger with a Road & Leaf badge under the tailgate Ford Oval....it is a flex fuel vehicle.

Best,
Phil

My first Ranger was a 1999 3.0 that I got new and had such an emblem. During the time I owned it, 1999-2002, we never had Flex Fuel here so I never tried it. Currently my wife owns a Flex Fuel rated Chrysler minivan but she's tried a few tanks of E85 and the mpg dropped enough that she didn't save any money.

 

[Progeny2021]

Hi Phil,

I stand corrected. Fossil fuels are hydrocarbons comprised primarily of the following elements: carbon and hydrogen and some sulfur, nitrogen, oxygen, and mineral matter, and given enough pressure, heat and ignition source anything can be fuel.

Being a mechanical engineer I was looking for “practical” answers to the E15 question to the OP’s question, but being accused by insulting and ignorant ones that I suspect you have no clue what that pI suspect you have no clue what that point could be. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing for those who are capable of comprehending proven data? be. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing for those who are capable of comprehending proven data?, practicality is not what we want to discuss or control.

This thread supports the question from the other thread: Can’t we all get along, especially without insults?

Enjoy!

I'm changing my profile occupation to 'Pope'. Maybe I'll get more respect? Hmmm....

 

[Floyd]

Been pumping exclusively E15 in the Carolinas for two years. No problems. You boomers are quite the sensitive bunch!

That's like sayin' " I haven't changed my oil in years and my car runs just fine"

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