Borne Off-Road Snorkel R&D Thread

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It would be nice if we could get a replacement alternator that can be submerged. Just a thought if anything.
I don’t want to sidetrack this thread, but is there a plate out there designed to protect the alternator from water/mud.

I managed to find a new alternator and am having it shipped to the shop that has my Ranger. Going to see about having the dead one rebuilt as a spare.





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Frenchy

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I don’t want to sidetrack this thread, but is there a plate out there designed to protect the alternator from water/mud.

I managed to find a new alternator and am having it shipped to the shop that has my Ranger. Going to see about having the dead one rebuilt as a spare.
I honestly have no idea. I do know that ARB has release a nice skid plate set for the Ranger for presale and im sure that can help to an extent but I dont think it will ve enough.
 

P. A. Schilke

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Hi Folks,

Okay....here is the story....When Ford installs a new motor in an existing chassis, there are going to be package issues. So the Package Engineers get together in a solemn ceremony, where they wear their Red Ford golf shirts and assemble all the front end components. Selection of these components is dictated by the Vehicle Engineering engineers based on features and necessary components. The components then draw straws...the component with the longest straw gets to choose its location on the engine. And so it goes. In Ranger 2.3L ecoboost, the alternator got the short straw.

All kidding aside, we have had low mounted alternators on other vehicles....Granada/Monarch comes to mind. The low mount alternator was plagued with failure due to water/ Salt water splash etc....not a very good place and we learned to keep the alternator up high on the motor. However, it appears the folks in charge were not around or do not remember the headaches this low mount alternator caused. Indefinite back order! Get real. The Vehicle Engineering Manager should have to face the ire of the customer for this decision. They may have had no choise and then I give them a pass, but likley it was driven by not having to redesign the motor. A splash shield is not a fix for those that will be fording rivers.... Sort of makes the snorkel useless, eh?

Anyway...Sad to see folks using their vehicle as intended and damaging their alternator with no parts available.

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired
 

Frenchy

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Hi Folks,

Okay....here is the story....When Ford installs a new motor in an existing chassis, there are going to be package issues. So the Package Engineers get together in a solemn ceremony, where they wear their Red Ford golf shirts and assemble all the front end components. Selection of these components is dictated by the Vehicle Engineering engineers based on features and necessary components. The components then draw straws...the component with the longest straw gets to choose its location on the engine. And so it goes. In Ranger 2.3L ecoboost, the alternator got the short straw.

All kidding aside, we have had low mounted alternators on other vehicles....Granada/Monarch comes to mind. The low mount alternator was plagued with failure due to water/ Salt water splash etc....not a very good place and we learned to keep the alternator up high on the motor. However, it appears the folks in charge were not around or do not remember the headaches this low mount alternator caused. Indefinite back order! Get real. The Vehicle Engineering Manager should have to face the ire of the customer for this decision. They may have had no choise and then I give them a pass, but likley it was driven by not having to redesign the motor. A splash shield is not a fix for those that will be fording rivers.... Sort of makes the snorkel useless, eh?

Anyway...Sad to see folks using their vehicle as intended and damaging their alternator with no parts available.

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired
In all honesty here with the things i have seen Ford do like use a Schrader valve with the tread pattern of a valve stem for a fuel pressure port I would not be suprized if that is how they really did things lol!!

Does it suck for the alternator? Absolutely but fording water isnt the only thing for snorkels. One of the other major points is they(to an extent)reduce the amount of dirt intake to thr engine air filter. Usually a great thing when in a convoy on a dusty dirt road or when you air intake is in the fenderwell like a lot of other vehicles. Thankfully with how Ford did the intake on the Ranger in the States dirt amd dust isnt as much of a problem compared to other vehicles but I'm a convoy as mentioned before it could be reduced by a snorkel.
 
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P. A. Schilke

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In all honesty here with the things i have seen Ford do like use a Schrader valve with the tread pattern of a valve stem for a fuel pressure port I would not be suprized if that is how they really did things lol!!

Does it suck for the alternator? Absolutely but fording water isnt the only thing for snorkels. One of the other major points is they(to an extent)reduce the amount of dirt intake to thr engine air filter. Usually a great thing when in a convoy on a dusty dirt road or when you air intake is in the fenderwell like a lot of other vehicles. Thankfully with how Ford did the intake on the Ranger in the States dirt amd dust isnt as much of a problem compared to other vehicles but I'm a convoy as mentioned before it could be reduced by a snorkel.
Hi Chris,

The dust intrusion was mentioned several times by me in other posts and still applies as you state. Astrailian Outback where I spent a few weeks sure pointed out the advantage of a snorkel. This was all about fording water... or the winter weather killer salt... Not maligning snorkels...

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired
 

TommyAtomic

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So lets assume that Ford didnt really care about the terrible alternator location or at worst they intentionally designed it to fail in any kind of watercrossing where it isnt lifted something absurd, like 18 inches over stock. The next step would have to be a sealed alternator assembly of some kind.

TT_Incased_Alternator.png


That picture is for a sealed alternator setup on a Toyota Landcruiser. The sealed setup draws air for ventilation for cooling from breather using the intake airbox as a vacuum source.
 
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Racket

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It would be nice if we could get a replacement alternator that can be submerged. Just a thought if anything.
Way back when alternator designs were a bit more generic you could get a 'marine' version I think was designed for gas engines boats. I think that was an in-demand item for Jeeps back in the day.
 

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You may prove me wrong with some empirical data that shows a meaningful benefit toward reducing “dirt and stuff” in the intake, but I doubt that anyone will put in any more effort than reading the unsubstantiated advertising claims of this, or any other, add-on intake snorkel. It is a red herring. “Adding a snorkel to your Ranger is about much more than appearing adventurous.” I’ll believe it when I see it.
Keeping dirt out of the intake is the reason snorkels were invented in the first place, even though the name sounds like it was meant for water. The snorkel was made to put the intake at the top of the vehicle so when you're offroading in a group, the intake can breathe clean air above the plume that is being kicked up. Obviously their potential for water resistance took over and so they started being designed to be not only air tight, but also water tight.
 

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Keeping dirt out of the intake is the reason snorkels were invented in the first place, even though the name sounds like it was meant for water. The snorkel was made to put the intake at the top of the vehicle so when you're offroading in a group, the intake can breathe clean air above the plume that is being kicked up. Obviously their potential for water resistance took over and so they started being designed to be not only air tight, but also water tight.
Think again.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snorkel

Definition of snorkel

1: a plastic tube that allows a swimmer to breathe while keeping the head or face under the surface of the water

He swam about 250 yards on the surface, using a snorkel to breathe, to get past the barren sandy bottom.— Brian Clark

No complicated equipment—just a mask, snorkel, and fins, and you're set to explore a shimmering world of exotic fish and Technicolor coral.— Richard Alleman


2: a tube housing air intake and exhaust pipes for a vehicle's engine that can be extended above the water's surface so that the engine can be operated while the vehicle is partially or fully submerged

Water entered the snorkel of an Argentine submarine and caused one of its batteries to short circuit before the vessel went missing this month, a navy spokesman said Monday.
— Chicago Tribune

Most need to be specially modified … with extra ground clearance to get over big rocks, an exhaust snorkel for river crossings, industrial-strength suspension, and an engine with enough torque to power through mud and sand.
— Jerry Guo


First Known Use of snorkel
Noun

1945, in the meaning defined at sense 2

Verb

1949, in the meaning defined above

History and Etymology for snorkel
Noun

German Schnorchel
 

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Think again.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snorkel

Definition of snorkel

1: a plastic tube that allows a swimmer to breathe while keeping the head or face under the surface of the water

He swam about 250 yards on the surface, using a snorkel to breathe, to get past the barren sandy bottom.— Brian Clark

No complicated equipment—just a mask, snorkel, and fins, and you're set to explore a shimmering world of exotic fish and Technicolor coral.— Richard Alleman


2: a tube housing air intake and exhaust pipes for a vehicle's engine that can be extended above the water's surface so that the engine can be operated while the vehicle is partially or fully submerged

Water entered the snorkel of an Argentine submarine and caused one of its batteries to short circuit before the vessel went missing this month, a navy spokesman said Monday.
— Chicago Tribune

Most need to be specially modified … with extra ground clearance to get over big rocks, an exhaust snorkel for river crossings, industrial-strength suspension, and an engine with enough torque to power through mud and sand.
— Jerry Guo


First Known Use of snorkel
Noun

1945, in the meaning defined at sense 2

Verb

1949, in the meaning defined above

History and Etymology for snorkel
Noun

German Schnorchel
Just did more research on the topic and although I was wrong about the reason for snorkel invention was, the reason for keeping the intake source out of dirt still stands as tall as the reason for water fording. Even ARBs site states that keeping the intake clean is just a big a reason to get an intake for water. This is why you see so many snorkels in dry desert places that rarely see water, yet you see more vehicles with snorkels than you do in places that have creek crossings on every trail.
 

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Bulldozer.jpg


There are many vehicles designed to work continuously in extremely dirty environments. They use pre-filters, not simply raised intake pipes. Many of us with decades of military experience in various craptastic desert environments are familiar with the Donaldson "cyclonic" extractors that mount on top of the actual deep-water fording stacks on various vehicles. The fact that they are elevated at all has nothing to do with finding cleaner air. The pre-filter is what makes it work, not the elevation.
 

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Bulldozer.jpg


There are many vehicles designed to work continuously in extremely dirty environments. They use pre-filters, not simply raised intake pipes. Many of us with decades of military experience in various craptastic desert environments are familiar with the Donaldson "cyclonic" extractors that mount on top of the actual deep-water fording stacks on various vehicles. The fact that they are elevated at all has nothing to do with finding cleaner air. The pre-filter is what makes it work, not the elevation.
These aren’t tractors, they’re trucks. Do you even off road or are you just trolling the thread?
 

P. A. Schilke

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These aren’t tractors, they’re trucks. Do you even off road or are you just trolling the thread?
Hi Tyler,

I managed Ford's Off Road Racing for 25 years as a side job as well as the on Road Racing for the 5 years it was in existence. Almost all the off road racing teams use the Donaldson pre air cleaner due it its cyclonic action to get the dirt out of the air coming into the engine. Very effective but packaging in the trucks of various class configurations was a challenge. Mike's not trolling in my opinion...just stating how extreme environments like CAT and Off Road Racing can be. It is hard to imagine an off road race with some 500 vehicles storming across the roads with no wind...the dust is so thick to be choking... We used Ford Bandanas in the pits. Stage coach robbers in appearance.

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
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slowmachine

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These aren’t tractors, they’re trucks. Do you even off road or are you just trolling the thread?
There's no significant difference between the filters on cars and bulldozers, other than the size, and many bulldozers see more dirt in a day than most Rangers will see in months, or even years, of off-road travel. I can conservatively estimate that I have at least 150,000 off-road miles behind me, possibly even twice that, in dozens of different makes, models, and sizes of vehicles, on three continents. None of that matters in the least. I'm extremely skeptical of any claim that an intake extension that merely increases the height, without addition filtration, provides any significant benefit beyond some subjective improvement in appearance. It is style with no substance. If that's what you're into, go for it. Your truck, your cash. I'm 100% certain that a quality pre-filter, even mounted lower than the stock intake, will prevent more dirt from reaching the stock filter than any simple intake extension that you can buy.
 

HoosierT

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Hi Tyler,

I managed Ford's Off Road Racing for 25 years as a side job as well as the on Road Racing for the 5 years it was in existence. Almost all the off road racing teams use the Donaldson pre air cleaner due it its cyclonic action to get the dirt out of the air coming into the engine. Very effective but packaging in the trucks of various class configurations was a challenge. Mike's not trolling in my opinion...just stating how extreme environments like CAT and Off Road Racing can be. It is hard to imagine an off road race with some 500 vehicles storming across the roads with no wind...the dust is so thick to be choking... We used Ford Bandanas in the pits. Stage coach robbers in appearance.

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired
I understand and can see the validity in that for racing and commercial applications. Would that be an ideal solution? Likely so. However, these are consumer products aimed at improving reliability at a consumer price point. As such, they do offer SOME protection from water and dirt ingress while maintaining a price point that is digestible by your average weekend warrior. It’s off-putting to see folks arguing the effectiveness and purpose of a snorkel when it’s obvious that there are compromises. But, to imply that it’s a marketing hype with no apparent benefit is simply false and misleading.
 

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