Fuel in oil

[Wade]

So first the dealer called and said that they didn't "see" any fuel, and that there was still oil in it, to which I replied that they needed to smell the oil, and see how over filled it is, and that of course there is still oil in there, it's not like I'm saying that the oil was all magically replaced by fuel So they said they would ask another technician, called me a little later and said that oil smelling like fuel is normal, and said nothing about it being overfilled. I would understand if it had been 6000-7000 miles of short trips, maybe a little fuel smell, but 1800 miles of 65 mph driving and it smells just as strong as when I changed the fuel filter on my Toyota a few months ago. That's not right. I wonder if Ford would rather replace a whole engine than just test my dang injectors...

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[Wade]

I'll pick it up today and change my oil, then I'll send in an oil sample somewhere to get it checked out. I'll post results here. Any suggestions on which kit I should go with?

 

[Noseoil]

"I understand why but some of you guys are really paranoid about warranty issues but it's just a catch can, it literally does nothing but catch oil. If it was put on wrong it would throw a code and even then it could not cause this issue. You also have to understand, this isn't like an insurance company looking for any reason to deny your claim. Dealers make money off warranty repairs so they'd have to have a very good reason to deny one and lose the work, like your truck looks like it just came back from running Baja or something..."

I'll be curious to see if mama Ford voids the warranty on your truck due to an after-market catch can, a non-factory engine emissions modification.

Also, interested in the findings on the gas in the oil problem. You should have a sample sent out to Blackstone. That would be a major problem for me, with the possibility of having the rings washed out at an early date while under warranty. That's definitely a game changer. Ask Ford to do an extended warranty on the motor, since there's gas in the oil.

 

[t4thfavor]

"I understand why but some of you guys are really paranoid about warranty issues but it's just a catch can, it literally does nothing but catch oil. If it was put on wrong it would throw a code and even then it could not cause this issue. You also have to understand, this isn't like an insurance company looking for any reason to deny your claim. Dealers make money off warranty repairs so they'd have to have a very good reason to deny one and lose the work, like your truck looks like it just came back from running Baja or something..."

I'll be curious to see if mama Ford voids the warranty on your truck due to an after-market catch can, a non-factory engine emissions modification.

Also, interested in the findings on the gas in the oil problem. You should have a sample sent out to Blackstone. That would be a major problem for me, with the possibility of having the rings washed out at an early date while under warranty. That's definitely a game changer. Ask Ford to do an extended warranty on the motor, since there's gas in the oil.

Dealers in my area "make" money on warranty, but they can make 10x that money on regular work of which they have more than they can handle. They try every trick in the book, and some that aren't in the book to deny warranty claims. I can assure you that if I went in there with a catch can, and a failed engine, or even a rattle or CEL, they would do their best to deny the claim entirely, and charge me the book rate on diagnosis and "repair".

I had them try to argue that I had messed with the AC line and caused it to flood my vehicle because I had installed a ham radio (that in no way connected to anything near the HVAC system) for which I was using a trunk mounted antenna, and getting power from the cigarette lighter in the trunk...

You have to go in there with proof positive, and they need to be dead to rights before it's not an argument, and this isn't just my experience.

 

[T-Wrecks]

If the rings were "washed out" or broken it would burn oil and smoke. I would have them change to oil and have them note the level then drive another 2000 miles. An oil test could be helpful too but I doubt they will trust the results. A compression test would verify if the rings are an issue in anyway.

 

[Noseoil]

My concern would be with the wear of the rings & the time factor as a function of warranty. If the rings have worn excessively, they may not show any real "wear" or leaking with a compression test. It won't show up for many miles, but could be a warranty issue in another few thousand miles. There's really no way of knowing without a major tear-down & subsequent measuring of all parts involved.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

My concern would be with the wear of the rings & the time factor as a function of warranty. If the rings have worn excessively, they may not show any real "wear" or leaking with a compression test. It won't show up for many miles, but could be a warranty issue in another few thousand miles. There's really no way of knowing without a major tear-down & subsequent measuring of all parts involved.

Hi Tim,

That is why a leak down test is way better than a compression test. It tells the degradation of the rings, but you must have a baseline. Compression test happens way too fast dynamically to id more engine maladies I leaked my new race engines after I built them, then after each race I did a leak down test. I could tell when it was time for rebuild without any guess. Example, Supply pressure was 100psi..spark plug side was 98. 2% leak down. After first race 100/98...good to go. After 4th race 100/85...Whow...time to pull the motor and install a fresh one and start rebuild on the pulled motor.

So for Wade. Leak a new engine and then leak his engine and see if there is any difference.

Btw A leakdown tester is easy to build. You need an Air source, a pressure regulator and two pressure gauges and a very small orfice between the pressure gauges and an air hose adapter to spark plug. It also tells the exhaust and intake valve sealing as you have a steady air pressure so, just listen to the intake to the motor and to the exhaust and you might detect a bad valve as well.

Not commonly used but far better test. I had a fellow show up at my house, a former neighbor with a 302 Mustang that he was thinking to buy. I leaked the engine and the test results showed a almost 100% leak on the 8th cylinder and listening to the exhaust it sounded like Niagara falls. Bad exhaust valve...he passed on the purchase and the seller admitted he knew the motor had a problem...

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

 

[Noseoil]

Phil, thanks for this answer. I don't know a lot about engines, but do know a compression test is not really adequate for an ongoing wear problem.

Sorry I didn't get to meet you before we moved out of Tucson last year for Raton. I think it would have been interesting to sit down over a cup of coffee.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

Phil, thanks for this answer. I don't know a lot about engines, but do know a compression test is not really adequate for an ongoing wear problem.

Sorry I didn't get to meet you before we moved out of Tucson last year for Raton. I think it would have been interesting to sit down over a cup of coffee.

Hi Tim,

Darn...swing and a miss... Compression test is much too fast to do more than show gross things gone wrong in a cylinder. Most folks run the compresson test wrong as well. The best way is to cycle the key for three compression hits and stop...take that reading, Release and do each other cylinder the same number of hits and record the data. This gives you a cylinder to cylinder comparison...most folks just crank the motor until the gauge stops climbing in value...this tells you very little except for grave concerns like a hole in the piston etc..It may not even find a cracked exhaust valve that is only slightly leaking. A leakdown test will find that sort of crack..

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

 

[dceggert]

The dealer can do a powertrain self test which can measure the cylinder imbalance from a performance point of view. If the injectors check out on the injector test, and the plugs are fine, then the test checks compression and combustion stability. If there is that much blowby of unburnt fuel then there is a cylinder not providing enough compression or carrying its weight.

The PCV system catch can should only be affecting the crankcase venting and should not be affecting fuel delivery or combustion chamber performance. I have seen PCV modifications leading to oil being sucked into the intake draining the crankcase of oil (like a straw) but never affecting fuel delivery.

If you are not getting the proper feedback from your selling dealer try another one if possible. My guess is this is an injector issue and, if truly leaking, could lead to other issues especially if the weather is turning colder. Not sure if it gets cold in your part of NM or not...

 

[Nutty 5.0]

Any suggestions on which kit I should go with?

Blackstone for testing:
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/products/free-test-kits/

 

[Wade]

Hi Tim,

That is why a leak down test is way better than a compression test. It tells the degradation of the rings, but you must have a baseline. Compression test happens way too fast dynamically to id more engine maladies I leaked my new race engines after I built them, then after each race I did a leak down test. I could tell when it was time for rebuild without any guess. Example, Supply pressure was 100psi..spark plug side was 98. 2% leak down. After first race 100/98...good to go. After 4th race 100/85...Whow...time to pull the motor and install a fresh one and start rebuild on the pulled motor.

So for Wade. Leak a new engine and then leak his engine and see if there is any difference.

Btw A leakdown tester is easy to build. You need an Air source, a pressure regulator and two pressure gauges and a very small orfice between the pressure gauges and an air hose adapter to spark plug. It also tells the exhaust and intake valve sealing as you have a steady air pressure so, just listen to the intake to the motor and to the exhaust and you might detect a bad valve as well.

Not commonly used but far better test. I had a fellow show up at my house, a former neighbor with a 302 Mustang that he was thinking to buy. I leaked the engine and the test results showed a almost 100% leak on the 8th cylinder and listening to the exhaust it sounded like Niagara falls. Bad exhaust valve...he passed on the purchase and the seller admitted he knew the motor had a problem...

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

I appreciate the reply, what do you think of the possibility of it simply being a leaking injector? And what would be the best way to test for that? The dealer performed an injector buzz test, but I don't know if that would really help find a leaking injector, I don't know much about that test at all actually...

 

[Wade]

The dealer can do a powertrain self test which can measure the cylinder imbalance from a performance point of view. If the injectors check out on the injector test, and the plugs are fine, then the test checks compression and combustion stability. If there is that much blowby of unburnt fuel then there is a cylinder not providing enough compression or carrying its weight.

The PCV system catch can should only be affecting the crankcase venting and should not be affecting fuel delivery or combustion chamber performance. I have seen PCV modifications leading to oil being sucked into the intake draining the crankcase of oil (like a straw) but never affecting fuel delivery.

If you are not getting the proper feedback from your selling dealer try another one if possible. My guess is this is an injector issue and, if truly leaking, could lead to other issues especially if the weather is turning colder. Not sure if it gets cold in your part of NM or not...

I appreciate the reply, I think you are right about it being an injector issue. Just gotta get the dealer to work with me! Fortunately it does not get very cold where I'm at in West Texas, but I do travel up to Utah and Colorado where my wife and I are from pretty frequently. Looking forward to getting some oil test results back to see just how bad it is.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

I appreciate the reply, what do you think of the possibility of it simply being a leaking injector? And what would be the best way to test for that? The dealer performed an injector buzz test, but I don't know if that would really help find a leaking injector, I don't know much about that test at all actually...

Hi Wade,

My explanation of testing is to assess any damage resulting from this malady. Daniel's is to determine the cause of the issue. You really need both, and I do agree it seems to be related to an injector problem. I really think you caught this problem before any serious damage occurred in the motor, but that is just my opinion...Testing is needed to confirm the motor is okay or not. And Daniel's test is to identify the culprit. If the testing does not id an injector, the replace them all is my opinion!

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retied

 

[dceggert]

Wade,
I have been scrounging through the internet looking for "ecoboost fuel in oil" posts and came across this:

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/trailers-transportation/340718-ecoboost-fuel-oil-issue.html

It is a post from 2015 on F150 'ecoboost' (it does not say which engine...3.5L or 2.7L) but it is alluding to a technical service bulletin (TSB) on ecoboost engines getting fuel in the oil due to an issue with the PCV system. The TSB supposedly changes something in the PCV system to correct the issue.

Maybe someone on the forum can try to find this specific 2015 TSB?

I did find reference to an earlier TSB:

http://ecoboostforum.com/threads/ts...el-overfull-2011-2014-f150-ecoboost-3-5l.136/

Holy cow googling fuel dilution in oil brings up PAGES of issues on other brand vehicles. It appears to be a big issue for quite a few manufacturers.

In the meantime, if this is potentially correct, the PCV system may in fact have an affect on this. I would recommend you put the PCV system back the way it was and see if the fuel contamination goes back away (maybe one oil change cycle). You could then reinstall it and see if it subsequently comes back. That may point to the catch can or hose routings as a source for what may be going on as the cause. Or, conversely, it may eliminate it as the cause.

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