Borne Off-Road Snorkel R&D Thread

[slowmachine]

We've been chasing this around in circles for a full year now. Some observations and opinions:

1. The original purpose for a snorkel is operating in water that is deeper than the normal air intake. The word, snorkel, is of German origin, and was first used to describe an engine air intake pipe for submerged naval submarines.

2. I accept that language changes over time, and words acquire new meanings. For the purpose of this discussion, and because Mishimoto is using the term "snorkel" in reference to something that is extremely unlikely to ever provide a fording capability in excess of the Ranger's stock configuration, that this particular snorkel may be useful for purposes other than driving through deep water.

3. One stated purpose for this "snorkel" is to provide access to cleaner air than is available to the factory (or Mishimoto's replacement) air intake, which takes in air from the high-pressure area at the front of the truck. These air boxes don't mimic the classic "Ram Air" intakes from the Muscle Car Era, but they are doing the same thing, accepting high-pressure cool air into the intake, for the purpose of maximizing power and efficiency. I FULLY REJECT the notion that the air at the top of the A-pillar is sufficiently cleaner than the air at the front of the hood. There are millions of vehicles in use, all over the planet, that operate in environments so full of airborne dust and debris that they use one or more pre-filters upstream from the main intake air filter. Outside of the impossibly tiny percentage of those being installed on highly-accessorized "off-road" recreational vechicles, I've never seen one, in person or in photos, with an elevated intake inlet unless they are also being used as a true deep-water fording intake snorkel.

4. I have seen at least one of the "off-road accessory" non-fording snorkels that was capable of mounting a pre-filter at the top of the tube.

5. If this so-called snorkel, or others like it, actually produces a performance gain that couldn't be duplicated by increasing the size of the grille-mounted intake, in the factory airbox or an aftermarket replacement, I'll be more surprised that you could possibly imagine. It certainly needs to do something for the vehicle to justify the additional aerodynamic drag and wind noise while driving.

6. Every video, every advertisement, all of the literature, are sure to mention how much the "appearance" is improved by the addition of this "dirt snorkel" that it's nearly impossible to believe that isn't the primary purpose from the word go. Pay your money, look cool(er). In my book, that makes it a POSER PIPE, suitable for looking cool at the mall and nothing else. Please prove me wrong by providing actual repeatable test data that says otherwise.

Sponsored

 

[Msfitoy]

We've been chasing this around in circles for a full year now. Some observations and opinions:

1. The original purpose for a snorkel is operating in water that is deeper than the normal air intake. The word, snorkel, is of German origin, and was first used to describe an engine air intake pipe for submerged naval submarines.

2. I accept that language changes over time, and words acquire new meanings. For the purpose of this discussion, and because Mishimoto is using the term "snorkel" in reference to something that is extremely unlikely to ever provide a fording capability in excess of the Ranger's stock configuration, that this particular snorkel may be useful for purposes other than driving through deep water.

3. One stated purpose for this "snorkel" is to provide access to cleaner air than is available to the factory (or Mishimoto's replacement) air intake, which takes in air from the high-pressure area at the front of the truck. These air boxes don't mimic the classic "Ram Air" intakes from the Muscle Car Era, but they are doing the same thing, accepting high-pressure cool air into the intake, for the purpose of maximizing power and efficiency. I FULLY REJECT the notion that the air at the top of the A-pillar is sufficiently cleaner than the air at the front of the hood. There are millions of vehicles in use, all over the planet, that operate in environments so full of airborne dust and debris that they use one or more pre-filters upstream from the main intake air filter. Outside of the impossibly tiny percentage of those being installed on highly-accessorized "off-road" recreational vechicles, I've never seen one, in person or in photos, with an elevated intake inlet unless they are also being used as a true deep-water fording intake snorkel.

4. I have seen at least one of the "off-road accessory" non-fording snorkels that was capable of mounting a pre-filter at the top of the tube.

5. If this so-called snorkel, or others like it, actually produces a performance gain that couldn't be duplicated by increasing the size of the grille-mounted intake, in the factory airbox or an aftermarket replacement, I'll be more surprised that you could possibly imagine. It certainly needs to do something for the vehicle to justify the additional aerodynamic drag and wind noise while driving.

6. Every video, every advertisement, all of the literature, are sure to mention how much the "appearance" is improved by the addition of this "dirt snorkel" that it's nearly impossible to believe that isn't the primary purpose from the word go. Pay your money, look cool(er). In my book, that makes it a POSER PIPE, suitable for looking cool at the mall and nothing else. Please prove me wrong by providing actual repeatable test data that says otherwise.

Perhaps Overland Bound can shed some light...



Snorkel or not...most vehicles in dusty conditions like Australia use them...especially road trains...these are factory installs...

 

[SteelWheelDeplorable]

At the end of the day this is a snorkel for off-road use and protection from the elements, yes our alternators suck and Ford will never live that down.
I think having the option to run it with or without the plug in minutes is awesome. IMO as long as it doesn’t loose HP receiving air 100% down the snorkel this is a win, dyno pack or in-ground dyno with a big fan is how I’ve always seen high HP cars run and people tend to brag off those numbers at car shows all the time. I’m not racing my Ranger or ever push it past 85 anyways haha ??‍?

 

[Msfitoy]

@Mishimoto Something I haven't seen but curious about is the clearance between door frame and snorkel at full swing?

 

[Msfitoy]

Hi Folks,

Okay....here is the story....When Ford installs a new motor in an existing chassis, there are going to be package issues. So the Package Engineers get together in a solemn ceremony, where they wear their Red Ford golf shirts and assemble all the front end components. Selection of these components is dictated by the Vehicle Engineering engineers based on features and necessary components. The components then draw straws...the component with the longest straw gets to choose its location on the engine. And so it goes. In Ranger 2.3L ecoboost, the alternator got the short straw.

All kidding aside, we have had low mounted alternators on other vehicles....Granada/Monarch comes to mind. The low mount alternator was plagued with failure due to water/ Salt water splash etc....not a very good place and we learned to keep the alternator up high on the motor. However, it appears the folks in charge were not around or do not remember the headaches this low mount alternator caused. Indefinite back order! Get real. The Vehicle Engineering Manager should have to face the ire of the customer for this decision. They may have had no choise and then I give them a pass, but likley it was driven by not having to redesign the motor. A splash shield is not a fix for those that will be fording rivers.... Sort of makes the snorkel useless, eh?

Anyway...Sad to see folks using their vehicle as intended and damaging their alternator with no parts available.

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

Maybe this was already answered but how did they fix this (or not) for the Bronco?

 

[SteelWheelDeplorable]

Maybe this was already answered but how did they fix this (or not) for the Bronco?

I don’t think the Bronco got a sealed alternator but I might be wrong.

 

[LB357]

Anyone else having issue placing an order? Getting some processor error even using different cards. @Mishimoto any ideas? Wanting to get in before the pre-order ends.

 

[slowmachine]

Perhaps Overland Bound can shed some light...



Snorkel or not...most vehicles in dusty conditions like Australia use them...especially road trains...these are factory installs...

I spent a week in and around Darwin, so I have some understanding of the level of airborne dust and dirt in this environment. It's not much different from some desert areas in the southwest USA and northern Mexico. Parts of Nevada are particularly bad. A cleanable pre-filter solves most of the problems. Raised air intake solves non of them, and the unfiltered forward-facing air "scoop" seems more likely to make it worse than better.

A quick keyword search at car sales.com.au shows 19,419 vehicles in the "Off-road 4x4" category. "Snorkel" provides 3041 hits, "intake" 65. That's less than one in six. Perhaps the previous owners also watched too many Youtube videos extolling the virtues of an "off-road snorkel," and could no longer stand having extra money in their wallet that could be wasted on hey-look-at-me off-road bolt-ons.

The linked video illuminates precisely what I am saying. The "raised intake" provides little or no more fording capability over stock, due to all of the other components that are not waterproof, or even water resistant. This guy thinks that Nitrous Oxide allows the engine to make more power because it is cooler than ambient air, which doesn't help his credibility.

It's important to note that a lot (probably most) of the vehicles actually equipped for fording are diesel-powered. Any modifications to the intake that facilitate additional air flow are potential power boosters. Larger diameter pipes are one way to do it, but many will need more filter surface area in combination. Gasoline vehicles, unlike diesels, have a throttle plate that controls air flow into the engine. Ram-air? Of course! On the drag strip, at wide-open throttle. But can't we get some improvement at lower speeds? Of course! Just add a turbocharger to get the same effect at any speed. No snorkel required.

The Toyota that he shows has a non-waterproof raised intake with a pre-filter on top. Notably, it does not have a forward-facing "ram air" port, just a 360-degree round cap like every piece of heavy construction equipment on earth. The video guy talks for a while about turning the "ram air" part sideways, or even backward, to prevent water accumulation in the intake. Just reading the comments from the linked video is entertaining. They know that the rugged appearance of the vehicle is a primary motivation for installing the raised intake. It is certainly not for increased power from any ram-air effect, as some here are maintaining.

POSER PIPE

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

Nick did say that the static dyno test net 10 extra torque...I'd imagine with actual ram pressure while accelerating, that number could increase...

Yet the actual results were edited out of the video, which IMO leads to question of their accuracy. Aside from the lack of a plug, my big concern with this snorkel is the narrower looking exterior pipe, and that it may reduce airflow slightly. Admittedly, if it is more restrictive, it's not allot, and rarely going to make a difference other than WOT.

If I made a snorkel and had a dyno test showing zero air flow loss, I'd post that video, not edit it out.

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

I spent a week in and around Darwin, so I have some understanding of the level of airborne dust and dirt in this environment. It's not much different from some desert areas in the southwest USA and northern Mexico. Parts of Nevada are particularly bad. A cleanable pre-filter solves most of the problems. Raised air intake solves non of them, and the unfiltered forward-facing air "scoop" seems more likely to make it worse than better.

A quick keyword search at car sales.com.au shows 19,419 vehicles in the "Off-road 4x4" category. "Snorkel" provides 3041 hits, "intake" 65. That's less than one in six. Perhaps the previous owners also watched too many Youtube videos extolling the virtues of an "off-road snorkel," and could no longer stand having extra money in their wallet that could be wasted on hey-look-at-me off-road bolt-ons.

The linked video illuminates precisely what I am saying. The "raised intake" provides little or no more fording capability over stock, due to all of the other components that are not waterproof, or even water resistant. This guy thinks that Nitrous Oxide allows the engine to make more power because it is cooler than ambient air, which doesn't help his credibility.

It's important to note that a lot (probably most) of the vehicles actually equipped for fording are diesel-powered. Any modifications to the intake that facilitate additional air flow are potential power boosters. Larger diameter pipes are one way to do it, but many will need more filter surface area in combination. Gasoline vehicles, unlike diesels, have a throttle plate that controls air flow into the engine. Ram-air? Of course! On the drag strip, at wide-open throttle. But can't we get some improvement at lower speeds? Of course! Just add a turbocharger to get the same effect at any speed. No snorkel required.

The Toyota that he shows has a non-waterproof raised intake with a pre-filter on top. Notably, it does not have a forward-facing "ram air" port, just a 360-degree round cap like every piece of heavy construction equipment on earth. The video guy talks for a while about turning the "ram air" part sideways, or even backward, to prevent water accumulation in the intake. Just reading the comments from the linked video is entertaining. They know that the rugged appearance of the vehicle is a primary motivation for installing the raised intake. It is certainly not for increased power from any ram-air effect, as some here are maintaining.

POSER PIPE

I agree our vehicles are not designed for deep crossing, I don't plan on going much deeper than I have, but if it happens a snorkel provides insurance against water blowing the motor. I still get water in the cab, I may even kill my alternator, but a snorkel reduces my chances of motor damage.

Cosmetically I'd rather not have it, mpg I'd rather not have it, and for increased noise I'd rather not have it.

 

[slowmachine]

I agree our vehicles are not designed for deep crossing, I don't plan on going much deeper than I have, but if it happens a snorkel provides insurance against water blowing the motor. I still get water in the cab, I may even kill my alternator, but a snorkel reduces my chances of motor damage.

Cosmetically I'd rather not have it, mpg I'd rather not have it, and for increased noise I'd rather not have it.

That’s a valid argument in my book. It’s what a snorkel is supposed to do. I can only guess, though, the end result of filthy water pouring into the dash through the firewall HVAC intake ports. This is an environment for an old modified junker, not a brand new $30K+ pickup with sensitive electronics. Google “flood damaged cars” for the horror stories.

 

[daniel3507]

I don't see this being worth it or functional until there is a solution for the alternator. It might help prevent water in the engine ( if the stock intake is plugged) but your likely still stuck due to a dead alternator. I don't understand the cleaner air argument either but that may be because most trails I'm used to aren't super dusty. I'm glad they are developing a plug for the stock intake but it's pretty funny that they would design a snorkel that leaves the stock intake wide open. I really like that you don't have to drill the fender though. That being said, if I were buying a snorkel I may still lean towards ARB, but this is a better prices

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

That’s a valid argument in my book. It’s what a snorkel is supposed to do. I can only guess, though, the end result of filthy water pouring into the dash through the firewall HVAC intake ports. This is an environment for an old modified junker, not a brand new $30K+ pickup with sensitive electronics. Google “flood damaged cars” for the horror stories.

Filthy water pours in under the doors, well before flooding over the hood, I've seen it in my Ranger

I completely agree there are lots of components in danger if it gets submerged and I don't want it under water. The concern for me was mainly in the placement of the air intake, being at the front of the truck, where the bow wave makes it higher than most other places. Moving the intake from that danger zone was as important as raising it higher.

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

I don't see this being worth it or functional until there is a solution for the alternator. It might help prevent water in the engine ( if the stock intake is plugged) but your likely still stuck due to a dead alternator. I don't understand the cleaner air argument either but that may be because most trails I'm used to aren't super dusty. I'm glad they are developing a plug for the stock intake but it's pretty funny that they would design a snorkel that leaves the stock intake wide open. I really like that you don't have to drill the fender though. That being said, if I were buying a snorkel I may still lean towards ARB, but this is a better prices

I carry a spare alternator since knowing of the issue. I'll own this truck a decade at least, so it's eventually going to be used even if not needed on trail.

 

[Mishimoto]

@Mishimoto What's the ETA on orders placed today?

Our launch/shipping ETA is still within the next few weeks since the components are still en route to our warehouses. I'll keep you guys posted on an exact date once we get closer!

@Mishimoto Something I haven't seen but curious about is the clearance between door frame and snorkel at full swing?

Sure thing! I'll make sure to grab a photo of that for you tomorrow

Anyone else having issue placing an order? Getting some processor error even using different cards. @Mishimoto any ideas? Wanting to get in before the pre-order ends.

Apologies on that! I'll make sure that our IT team is aware that this is still an issue so we can get your order placed. If you call in, our customer service team should be able to manually enter everything for you in the meantime.

If you're still having CC processing issues can you leave a "WOW" reaction on this post

-Nick

Sponsored