New Ranger Lugging between 1200 and 1500 RPMs - Is this normal?

[Floyd]

Apparently I misread this drivel?


None of these things, save for their effect on speed and load effect your shift points.

The transmission logic is widely hailed as the one flaw in the 10R80.

You have been misreading, but that is understandable.
You did get it right on the second sentence !!
I strongly disagree with with the last and have seen no real evidence to support it.

How can you even say that the transmission logic is flawed when its programmable ?.
I am well satisfied with the amazing and versatile capabilities of the 10R80 as delivered

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[NotBudule]

Well mine seems to have adapted quite a bit , and ive already done my happy dance ,so , no take backs...

 

[D Fresh]

You have been misreading, but that is understandable.
You did get right on the second sentence !!
I strongly disagree with with the last and have seen no real evidence to support it.

How can you even say that the transmission logic is flawed when its programmable ?.
I am well satisfied with the amazing and versatile capabilities of the 10R80 as delivered

Let me clarify.

The logic, as programmed and delivered, is flawed. Without tuning your truck there is no way possible for the end user to "program" the logic.

GM can't get much right. But the one thing they nailed it on is the shift logic of this transmission. Go drive a 10L80 and tell me your 10R80 shifts correctly as delivered.

As delivered, the shift logic in D is horrible. It's borderline undriveable, and gets less MPG than if it were properly tuned.

The fact that you don't agree is fine. You're entitled to your own opinion, even if it's wrong. However, you can't ignore the FACT that many people, driving multiple platforms, have a problem with it.

 

[D Fresh]

And this is based on what data exactly?

LSPI

 

[BassRanger]

LSPI

So turbo engines have LSPI cruising at 1300rpm?

 

[Floyd]

Let me clarify.

The logic, as programmed and delivered, is flawed. Without tuning your truck there is no way possible for the end user to "program" the logic.

GM can't get much right. But the one thing they nailed it on is the shift logic of this transmission. Go drive a 10L80 and tell me your 10R80 shifts correctly as delivered.

As delivered, the shift logic in D is horrible. It's borderline undriveable, and gets less MPG than if it were properly tuned.

The fact that you don't agree is fine. You're entitled to your own opinion, even if it's wrong. However, you can't ignore the FACT that many people, driving multiple platforms, have a problem with it.

Surprise!... we continue to disagree!
You still have the option of buying a "tune".
Me? Mine works great in "D" and delivers phenomenal performance and fuel mileage!
The fact that you are unsatisfied does not mean that I am wrong.

After a career of dealing with driver and operator complaints, I wouldn't think of ignoring the fact that some people have a problem with every single machine ever produced, often even when it performs perfectly as designed!

 

[Dgc333]

I don't know what sort of engineering background you have but I assume you would know the effects of tire size/type, along with gearing, load, etc.
I assume you have a 4X4 Crewcab with offroad compatible tires.
I have a 4X2 SuperCab with street tires and it never lugs, even when towing my Travel Trailer.
Mine came with a transmission tune well suited to the application which shifts "crisply" and smoothly and behaves as it was designed.
I see you live in MA, temperature and terrain also affect performance of course.
Bottom line is that a custom tune for specific applications can be a good thing, but the truck is factory tuned to offer the best overall performance for the normal range of targeted applications.
My truck simply would not benefit from an aftermarket tune (engine or transmission).
The good news is that you have that option!

Well I have been an engineer for the past 45 years and every decision an engineer makes is a compromise. So to pursume that the transmission tuning is "the best overall performance" is naive. I have no idea why it wants to run the engine down below 1500 rpm where it's not the smooth like most 4cyl engines. Did they simply just port over the coding from the F150 where the 6cyl and 8cyl engines run smooth in that rpm range to save cost. Or, did they consciously do that in an effort to squeak out a fraction of a mpg to improve the corporate fuel economy average.

Additional weight or larger tire diameters will exacerbate the problem but it is not the route of the problem. The two Ecoboost Mustangs I had were not smooth below 1500 rpm and they weighed approximately 1000 lbs less and the tires were about 4" smaller than the tires on my Tremor. If Ford was truly interested in best performance they would have had different tuning for the tranny based on weight and tire diameter thresholds but that would be a significant cost hit and we are right back to compromises.

 

[Floyd]

LSPI

B.S.!!

 

[D Fresh]

So turbo engines have LSPI cruising at 1300rpm?

Just cruising? No.


But encounter a significant hill or a slight increase in speed where a light roll into the throttle is prudent and now you've introduced a higher load and increased throttle. The conditions thar LSPI thrives upon.

IF the logic were to be sensitive enough to downshift for a slight throttle tip in, that would be fine. But it doesn't, you have to give her the beans a bit to force a downshift.

There are 10 gears in this thing. If it must cruise in 7th, 1300 rpm at 35mph, it should at least kick down a couple to 5th at 1700rpm when you need to accelerate slightly.

Not only does this create POSSIBLY dangerous conditions. It hinders driveability.

 

[D Fresh]

of course it doesnt know...but that doesnt remove the fact it has to react to it

Yes. It has to react to it.

And how does it do that?

By monitoring the parameters it DOES know and applying the faulty logic Ford programmed it with.

The slight differences @Floyd has mentioned are not nearly drastic enough to make it to were the factory logic is "perfect" for his truck.

It may be "perfect" for him, and that's fine.

 

[Dgc333]

So turbo engines have LSPI cruising at 1300rpm?

Low Speed Pre Ignition happens when there are very high cylinder pressures at low rpm. But when you are cruising along at 1300 rpm the throttle is barely open and manifold pressure is in vacuum, LSPI does not happen under those circumstances.

If the engine tune allowed for high boost pressures at 1300 rpm you could have it happen when jumping on the throttle. It is more likely to happen with a manual transmission or an automatic in manual mode, an auto in auto will down shift and get the engine rpm up into a safe zone.

 

[D Fresh]

Surprise!... we continue to disagree!
You still have the option of buying a "tune".
Me? Mine works great in "D" and delivers phenomenal performance and fuel mileage!
The fact that you are unsatisfied does not mean that I am wrong.

After a career of dealing with driver and operator complaints, I wouldn't think of ignoring the fact that some people have a problem with every single machine ever produced, often even when it performs perfectly as designed!

Nobody is saying that it doesn't operate as designed. We are saying that it wasn't designed correctly in our opinion. Big difference.

The fact that you like it does not take away from the fact that transmission shift points are THE NUMBER ONE driveability complaint about the Ranger.

Kinda like when you're trying to repair something some idiot engineer hid underneath something else. It's working as designed, it just wasn't well designed.

B.S.!!

Is that your official position as an engineer?

LSPI is not a thing and small displacement DI turbo charged motors are not inherently susceptible to it?

 

[D Fresh]

add me to the list.
I havent experienced what you describe either and other than my wonky cold morning shift, i find this thing performs quite well, including light throttle tip ins and the required downshifts to get up and go.

Of course there are going to be some whose driving style and conditions match better with the factory tune.

 

[D Fresh]

and just for reference, I am driving two GM's at work with the 10R80, and I dont see any noticeable difference from the Ranger to say GM nailed it better.
they shift the same although they are mated to a diesel.

A diesel with gobs of torque off idle.

VS a Ranger with relative gobs of torque but NOT off idle.

Go drive a 10L80 Camaro vs a 10R80 Mustang. It's obvious who got it right.

 

[D Fresh]

well, we are talking trucks, and i have experience with the trucks.
comparing cars now in this convo is starting to stretch out your argument pretty thin.

My point is that the 10R80's factory tuning is widely lamented accross various platforms.

Why it's tuned that way, as others have pointed out, is probably a combination of carryover tuning g from larger displacement engines and CAFE standards. But the point remains that it's not ideal.

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