Tremor with TSB 20-2277 - Shutter on Acceleration

[P. A. Schilke]

Yup. As well as my vibration at 35-45 and my vibration at 70-85. All still there.

Hi Chris,

You vibration is not caused by the driveshaft. It is wheel tire in all likelyhood. The start up shudder vibration TSB is not going to help you fix your problem.

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[MIBuckeye]

Hi Chris,

You vibration is not caused by the driveshaft. It is wheel tire in all likelyhood. The start up shudder vibration TSB is not going to help you fix your problem.

Clearly not but the "shutter" still there without the driveshaft in....so....maybe the shutter is not always THE shutter??

 

[P. A. Schilke]

Clearly not but the "shutter" still there without the driveshaft in....so....maybe the shutter is not always THE shutter??

Hi Chris,

Correct...not always your problem. Welcome to my world at Ford for much of my career...NVH is such a difficult area of diagnostics. So what is really causing your problem??? So hard to diagnose out of the computer.... Want a truly challenging career...become an NVH engineer.

 

[MIBuckeye]

Hi Chris,

Correct...not always your problem. Welcome to my world at Ford for much of my career...NVH is such a difficult area of diagnostics. So what is really causing your problem??? So hard to diagnose out of the computer.... Want a truly challenging career...become an NVH engineer.

I'd go nuts. No thanks!

 

[wetidlerjr]

Hmmm... "shutter" or "shudder", "butter" or "budder"?

 

[MIBuckeye]

Hi Folks,

Okay....again...you need to determine the frequencies of these vibrations relative to engine rpm and vehicle speed. This info can determine orders which can direct you to the source of the vibration. Then dealers have NVH equipment to accomplish this and it is very helpful to determine root cause. Otherwise you become a part swapper hoping you swap the right part and things work out. At Ford we could not take a chance on diagnostics like this as the vehicle population from which we had to deal was huge. We had to understand root cause. So much vibration attributed to the driveshaft is likely 2nd order wheel/tire. First order is tire balance. Second order is tire ovality, off center wheel studs, poorly machined wheels and so on. So shimming the driveshaft is ineffective because this is not the fix. There is a lot of data contained in NVH measurements and the instrumentation is sophisticated enough to lead to a robust fix. I know this sounds crazy but it works... I had very sophisticated FFT analyzers at my disposal but it was not the data generated but the information contained in the data. Now the dealership Analyzers can tell you that the order is 3.73 times the wheel rotation... Radar locked in on the driveshaft. Vibration is first order wheel. Balance, and so it goes.

Folks here see the word vibration and go that is my problem also...likely not the case. Diagnostic data and extraction of the information contained in the data is extremely helpful.

Best,
Phil Schilke
Ranger Vehicle Engineering
Ford Motor Co. Retired

Phil,
I've seen your response in many posts and appreciate the context you provide here immensely. I completely agree with your line of thought from an engineer's perspective. Tne reason so many people go crazy (me included) is because we all don't posess the sophisticated equipment that you have had at your disposal while at Ford. In fact, many dealers don't have it either, im learning. In addition the relationship between Ford engineering and the tech on the ground is seriously strained to the point that i seriously doubt any of them are working together for a common cause at all any more. The process goes like this. Customer must first convince dealer that a problem exists. Tech conducts known routine tests only and verifies the problem or dismisses it. If verified and no known test can pinpoint the cause, the tech hotline is used. The tech hotline then needs to be convinced there is a problem...repeat above here...if it can be verified, then they are advised to attempt other known (to hotline/engineers) procedures to resolve. If this still doesnt solve the issue, a FSE or field service engineer is called upon. This is where I have found the problem to be. The FSE is now in the driver's seat and the tech only does what the FSE instructs. In my case the tech could not even remove the driveshaft to test without it unless the FSE said so. His hands are tied. The FSE also has no clue what is happening in the 'wild' and says things like "just swap out the part with another Tremor on your lot"...clearly clueless of the climate of the availavility of the vehicle. The FSE also is over tasked and works on the timeline of a snail only incensing the customer and frustrating the front line customer support folks. The process is broken and NOT customer focused at all. I say this as a member of the "Ford family" also, so this is not just complaining. It is so fruatrating that everyone is looking for that holy grail solution in these forums instead of using a science based approach to problem solving...

 

[Cabose-1]

Phil,
I've seen your response in many posts and appreciate the context you provide here immensely. I completely agree with your line of thought from an engineer's perspective. Tne reason so many people go crazy (me included) is because we all don't posess the sophisticated equipment that you have had at your disposal while at Ford. In fact, many dealers don't have it either, im learning. In addition the relationship between Ford engineering and the tech on the ground is seriously strained to the point that i seriously doubt any of them are working together for a common cause at all any more. The process goes like this. Customer must first convince dealer that a problem exists. Tech conducts known routine tests only and verifies the problem or dismisses it. If verified and no known test can pinpoint the cause, the tech hotline is used. The tech hotline then needs to be convinced there is a problem...repeat above here...if it can be verified, then they are advised to attempt other known (to hotline/engineers) procedures to resolve. If this still doesnt solve the issue, a FSE or field service engineer is called upon. This is where I have found the problem to be. The FSE is now in the driver's seat and the tech only does what the FSE instructs. In my case the tech could not even remove the driveshaft to test without it unless the FSE said so. His hands are tied. The FSE also has no clue what is happening in the 'wild' and says things like "just swap out the part with another Tremor on your lot"...clearly clueless of the climate of the availavility of the vehicle. The FSE also is over tasked and works on the timeline of a snail only incensing the customer and frustrating the front line customer support folks. The process is broken and NOT customer focused at all. I say this as a member of the "Ford family" also, so this is not just complaining. It is so fruatrating that everyone is looking for that holy grail solution in these forums instead of using a science based approach to problem solving...

Don't forget, the tech only gets paid for 1.5 hours on the diagnoses job too. So now the tech has spent 8 hours on your vehicle, and it's eating all his lunch.

 

[MIBuckeye]

UPDATE on my "shutter" - Got the new read driveshaft put in today.....and...PROBLEM SOLVED!....feels like a new truck now. I say "shutter" because mine was through the entire speed range including startup through 90 miles an hour.... this solved it all....I still HATE these tires but I'll deal with that down the road....(no pun intended)

Chris

 

[JTDay]

That's a great result! Glad to hear you got it resolved.

 

[Shelby American]

UPDATE on my "shutter" - Got the new read driveshaft put in today.....and...PROBLEM SOLVED!....feels like a new truck now. I say "shutter" because mine was through the entire speed range including startup through 90 miles an hour.... this solved it all....I still HATE these tires but I'll deal with that down the road....(no pun intended)

Chris

Still waiting on my Tremor to get delivered. I'm going to make sure this is not a problem with mine, or I may change my mind. I will definitely test drive it.
So your saying that a new drive shaft has completely taken care of this issue?

 

[MIBuckeye]

Still waiting on my Tremor to get delivered. I'm going to make sure this is not a problem with mine, or I may change my mind. I will definitely test drive it.
So your saying that a new drive shaft has completely taken care of this issue?

I would love to tell you that it solved the problem. It solved the takeoff problem but I'm still plagued with a lot of vibration while driving. It's really inconsistent and throughout the entire driving range but most pronounced at 45-55 and 70-90... it's going back in to get looked at soon with the first oil change. Love this truck but if I could find another tremor I would trade for it in a heart beat... I've got a friend that has an xl that he lifted and he has the tire/wheel takeoffs that I'm going to swap on and eliminate the tires/wheels from the equation soon. I'll repost what I find. Still not convinced that the tires are good.

 

[Shelby American]

I would love to tell you that it solved the problem. It solved the takeoff problem but I'm still plagued with a lot of vibration while driving. It's really inconsistent and throughout the entire driving range but most pronounced at 45-55 and 70-90... it's going back in to get looked at soon with the first oil change. Love this truck but if I could find another tremor I would trade for it in a heart beat... I've got a friend that has an xl that he lifted and he has the tire/wheel takeoffs that I'm going to swap on and eliminate the tires/wheels from the equation soon. I'll repost what I find. Still not convinced that the tires are good.

I really hope Ford fixes this issue for you. Let's hope it's just as simple as changing out the tires.

 

[Aonarch]

UPDATE on my "shutter" - Got the new read driveshaft put in today.....and...PROBLEM SOLVED!....feels like a new truck now. I say "shutter" because mine was through the entire speed range including startup through 90 miles an hour.... this solved it all....I still HATE these tires but I'll deal with that down the road....(no pun intended)

Chris

Do you have a part number for the driveshaft?

I have this same low speed shudder.

 

[MIBuckeye]

Do you have a part number for the driveshaft?

I have this same low speed shudder.

I posted a picture up somewhere on this forum before bit can't find it now. I'll get another pic for ya tomorrow.

 

[bmxandfmx]

Any updates from anyone working this issue?
I’m at the dealer for the 4th time today. Already road forced balanced the tires the last 3 times. I asked if they have a driveline specialist with the NVH equipment that Phill spoke about. They said they do so hopefully this is a start to a fix.

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