How cold A/C?

[Lablanca2019]

With that (Temp) - as a general guide - makes me think the Evap is actually getting cold and the next step - which Forscan does not have - is to view the - Temp Door Actuator (position) is it actually driving to (LO) and staying there.
But if the Evap is actually 33.8 Deg or Lower - then the PCM is commanding the compressor clutch to disengage - this is the protection cutoff temp to prevent evap freeze up.

Will it drive (LO) without selecting (Max Ac) ?
Are there any popping sounds - under the dash?


This truly needs a scanner that can see all the PIDs in the FCIM as well as the PCM for the Climate Control System.

Need to see:
The Door Position PIDs - Mode - Temp and Air Inlet
The Temp Sensor's PIDs - EVAP - Panel Discharge - Floor Discharge and Humidity / Temp as well as the Ambient Temp Sensor

Basically - you have 60 deg air from the Vents - We need to know what the actual temp sensors are reporting - as these are being reported to the FCIM

So yes - we need to shift focus to the control side in the climate box.

For some reason iam able to get dtc for the fcim but not live data as for the codes I was expecting the recycle door circuit since it's unplugged what would be explain the others or would the recycle fault trigger the others ?

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[airline tech]

Ok for a quick ref with a Digital Therm
90 Deg OAT

At Idle

If I set - it to (LO) - I get 35.5 Deg air out of the vent
If I set it to (Max AC) - I get the same 35.5 deg air out of the vent

For summer - I normally leave it in (Auto) and set it to 69 deg, however I mostly am parked in a garage - both home and work and even when in the sun - the blower will ramp up

Now for the disconnected (Air Inlet Door - Actuator) - This is (HIGHLY) likely your issue, the FCIM cannot see the door position and cannot command the (Max AC) - although you have (Indication) its in (Max AC) its actually not,
Remember the (True / False) PIDs I mentioned - I suspect the full cold and max ac - issues are generating a - fault PID to go - True, meaning its affecting the - Clutch and Compressor - control.

And it would be the - Missing Message from climate control - most likely reading - True

I would fix this issue and the wiring - behind the scenes - in the control side of the FCIM - this is an important input

 

[airline tech]

For some reason iam able to get dtc for the fcim but not live data as for the codes I was expecting the recycle door circuit since it's unplugged what would be explain the others or would the recycle fault trigger the others ?

They are all the same - actuator

For some reason iam able to get dtc for the fcim but not live data as for the codes I was expecting the recycle door circuit since it's unplugged what would be explain the others or would the recycle fault trigger the others ?

The 2 PIDs for the Air Inlet and Recirculation - are for the same actuator
The single PID - Air Distribution - I believe is due to the - Air Inlet Door - issue as when Max AC is commanded - the distribution door moves to the (Panel) - it may be getting lost as to where its supposed to be - all tied to the feedback position of the Air Inlet

 

[Lablanca2019]

They are all the same - actuator

The 2 PIDs for the Air Inlet and Recirculation - are for the same actuator
The single PID - Air Distribution - I believe is due to the - Air Inlet Door - issue as when Max AC is commanded - the distribution door moves to the (Panel) - it may be getting lost as to where its supposed to be - all tied to the feedback position of the Air Inlet

I plugged the recycle door actuator back in and did a fcim module reset and cleared the codes .


Sitting in driveway

Ok for a quick ref with a Digital Therm
90 Deg OAT

At Idle

If I set - it to (LO) - I get 35.5 Deg air out of the vent
If I set it to (Max AC) - I get the same 35.5 deg air out of the vent

For summer - I normally leave it in (Auto) and set it to 69 deg, however I mostly am parked in a garage - both home and work and even when in the sun - the blower will ramp up

Now for the disconnected (Air Inlet Door - Actuator) - This is (HIGHLY) likely your issue, the FCIM cannot see the door position and cannot command the (Max AC) - although you have (Indication) its in (Max AC) its actually not,
Remember the (True / False) PIDs I mentioned - I suspect the full cold and max ac - issues are generating a - fault PID to go - True, meaning its affecting the - Clutch and Compressor - control.

And it would be the - Missing Message from climate control - most likely reading - True

I would fix this issue and the wiring - behind the scenes - in the control side of the FCIM - this is an important input

I went head and plugged the recycle door back in and cleared the fcim codes
At idle fan speed at max.. this is my high pressure if I leave fan speed at medium pressures hover in the low 260's.. (testing with doors closed recycle on)

 

[airline tech]

Ok:

So at (Max Blower Speed) the Evaporator absorbs more heat (Cabin Air) that heat is transferred out to the condenser (where the heat) is removed - and when you have a lower blower speed - less heat is being absorbed by the Evap - so less heat at the condenser.
This explains the - Pressure (Rise & Fall) with blower speed

You do have an important PID - showing
EVACC Derate - High Discharge Pressure - The PCM does not like the high pressure and is - limiting AC Compressor output.

So at this point - its looking like the system is overcharged and the PCM is limiting the compressor output to protect the system.
i think its spiking so quickly its hitting the derate (cutout) before it can command an increase on the Fan Speed Desired

Another possible is a restricted condenser - so far everything is pointing to the ability of the condenser to remove the heat.
So overcharged - flooding the condenser with freon amount it cannot handle
Surface area and internal porting - having difficulty of removing heat from 134
Internal restriction - Too much PAG oil or incorrect PAG Oil used

This is where (specific data) on the charge procedure will help - was it weighed (scale) or blindly until the gauge read full and how much and what type of PAG Oil was induced.

You may try a temperature map of the condenser with the (Therm)
Left to Right
Top - Middle and Bottom

 

[Lablanca2019]

Ok:

So at (Max Blower Speed) the Evaporator absorbs more heat (Cabin Air) that heat is transferred out to the condenser (where the heat) is removed - and when you have a lower blower speed - less heat is being absorbed by the Evap - so less heat at the condenser.
This explains the - Pressure (Rise & Fall) with blower speed

You do have an important PID - showing
EVACC Derate - High Discharge Pressure - The PCM does not like the high pressure and is - limiting AC Compressor output.

So at this point - its looking like the system is overcharged and the PCM is limiting the compressor output to protect the system.
i think its spiking so quickly its hitting the derate (cutout) before it can command an increase on the Fan Speed Desired

Another possible is a restricted condenser - so far everything is pointing to the ability of the condenser to remove the heat.
So overcharged - flooding the condenser with freon amount it cannot handle
Surface area and internal porting - having difficulty of removing heat from 134
Internal restriction - Too much PAG oil or incorrect PAG Oil used

This is where (specific data) on the charge procedure will help - was it weighed (scale) or blindly until the gauge read full and how much and what type of PAG Oil was induced.

You may try a temperature map of the condenser with the (Therm)
Left to Right
Top - Middle and Bottom

Thank you for this wealth of knowledge.. I'll be taking the truck back to the shop with all this information I know all this will get fixed.. just hate my work schedule only allows me to get it worked on.. on Fridays..

As far as the oil I believe he just pulled the r1234 and did a lengthy vacume using the factory oil.. as for fill method I wouldn't know untill I speak with him tomorrow..

 

[airline tech]

What was the reason (originally) to touch the AC System?
What was the issue (symptoms) before the conversion?
If compressor failure- that may explain (debris) restriction in the condenser.

 

[Lablanca2019]

What was the reason (originally) to touch the AC System?
What was the issue (symptoms) before the conversion?
If compressor failure- that may explain (debris) restriction in the condenser.

Same symptoms cold at low speed but 70 plus vent temperatures at high fan speed.. conversion was done since 134a has slightly better cooling properties and cheaper to service if we need to open system

 

[airline tech]

Ok, so if these symptoms were present before the conversion and the condenser has been externally inspected - (no damage-bent fins) on both sides and no debris has accumulated in between the radiator and condenser (ref the pic posted - in a earlier post)
Leads to a diagnostic path of a internally restricted condenser and or a bad pressure sensor that is lying to its actual pressure.

So, manifold gage reading vs PID reading - a (+/- 15 PSI) variance is allowed - so this is more of a elimination test - Is the pressure sensor reporting accurate pressure - if not then its falsely reporting high pressure and forcing the PCM to derate the compressor output.
This test will prove if the pressure sensor is accurate.
The good thing is - per the manual the sensor can be replaced without recovery of the system so its a Schrader valve connection at the tube.
I would verify the sensor is reading accurately before condemning the condenser.

One other thing would be to - perform a bi-directional test of the fan clutch - you are not reporting any overheating issues - but this may be a partial factor in this issue.
I am leaning more on - the condenser or invalid pressure reading from the sensor.

So to summarize - your test so far have shown that the PCM is seeing - High Pressure and derating the output - this is your warm vent output reason.
So it needs T-Shot - is it a pressure reading (false report) or is it an actual issue at the condenser, electrically the sensor is working - but needs verified its accurate.

I now understand the reasoning for the conversion, but I think it needed a bit more T-Shooting before doing it and I am curious what the static pressures are reading - both Low and High after the truck has set overnight - do they stabilize? - (Equal)

 

[Lablanca2019]

Ok, so if these symptoms were present before the conversion and the condenser has been externally inspected - (no damage-bent fins) on both sides and no debris has accumulated in between the radiator and condenser (ref the pic posted - in a earlier post)
Leads to a diagnostic path of a internally restricted condenser and or a bad pressure sensor that is lying to its actual pressure.

So, manifold gage reading vs PID reading - a (+/- 15 PSI) variance is allowed - so this is more of a elimination test - Is the pressure sensor reporting accurate pressure - if not then its falsely reporting high pressure and forcing the PCM to derate the compressor output.
This test will prove if the pressure sensor is accurate.
The good thing is - per the manual the sensor can be replaced without recovery of the system so its a Schrader valve connection at the tube.
I would verify the sensor is reading accurately before condemning the condenser.

One other thing would be to - perform a bi-directional test of the fan clutch - you are not reporting any overheating issues - but this may be a partial factor in this issue.
I am leaning more on - the condenser or invalid pressure reading from the sensor.

So to summarize - your test so far have shown that the PCM is seeing - High Pressure and derating the output - this is your warm vent output reason.
So it needs T-Shot - is it a pressure reading (false report) or is it an actual issue at the condenser, electrically the sensor is working - but needs verified its accurate.

I now understand the reasoning for the conversion, but I think it needed a bit more T-Shooting before doing it and I am curious what the static pressures are reading - both Low and High after the truck has set overnight - do they stabilize? - (Equal)

One thing I did notice driving around at highway speeds the high pressure drops to 120-160ish via forscan live data

Basically we can narrow it down to.. pressure switch ,condenser compressor, or expansion valve?

 

[airline tech]

So when on highway- what does the temp output produce? And does the PID still show derated?
I feel the issue is at the condenser or the pressure being reported.

since the issue was before the conversion, I am reevaluating the issue and would focus on the condenser/ heat transfer as this produces a change in the pressure- by your drive and blower test

 

[Lablanca2019]

Tem

So when on highway- what does the temp output produce? And does the PID still show derated?
I feel the issue is at the condenser or the pressure being reported.

since the issue was before the conversion, I am reevaluating the issue and would focus on the condenser/ heat transfer as this produces a change in the pressure- by your drive and blower test

Vent temp even at highway speeds is 55 degrees at best one dot down from max fan speed... no derate message

 

[airline tech]

Ok. decided to do a - Live Data Drive since we were at 97 deg OAT
I wanted to do this for real world test vs (On Paper - this is how it works and what you should expect) to prove or disprove the descriptions.

So - I need to correct something and that is my - Vent Temps'
Yes - with a digital thermometer - I can get it to read in the 30's, but this is a temperature device that can update quickly and it is picking up the variance in air mixing.

I had a list of PIDs I wanted to monitor and still have some more to add such as the Cooling Fan - I have never been able to catch a - PCM Commanded (fan increase) via live data and am curious as to what are all the (must meet) parameters before it commands (increase) I may need to get my TopDon or Snappy on it - to see it.

Anyway - with the general basic AC Operation - its been a general range of the AC System when working properly - it should cool to about 35 - 40 deg below ambient
I proved this to be - True and normal for the Ranger

So here are my - Live Data Readings - Shortened

Ambient (OAT) 97 Deg
Note: The AC Pressure listed = the average pressure
Note: The Panel Discharge Temp = the PID Reading, if i use my digital and hold it (directed into the vent) - I can get it to read near the Evap Temp Readings
My (Old) gauge style therm - reads exactly as the PID.
So I need to correct my previous (results) here as they were not entirely accurate and true

Here are my results:

Idle: Auto (set to 69 deg) - Just after parking
AC Press: 205 psi
Evap Temp: 37.4 deg
Panel Discharge Temp: 57.2 deg
Floor Discharge Temp: 82.4 deg

Idle Max AC (Selected) - just switched to Max-AC from Auto
Note: Max AC generates max blower speed (which is displayed ) Steps - 82 Steps, so for ref this is how full blower speed is displayed, example in Auto - it was switching between 41-43 steps (speed)

I left it in MAX-AC for awhile and recorded - and this was my range (variance)
AC Press: 210 -270 psi
Evap Temp: 37.4 - 38.3
Panel Discharg Temp: 57.2 - 62.6 deg (Noted the higher the AC Press the discharge temp climbed as well as Evap Temp) so a good T-Shoot (note) for excessive AC Pressures
Floor Discharge Temp: 82.4 deg

Idle after sitting parked for 15 minutes - just switched back to Auto
AC Press: 270 psi
Evap Temp: 35.6 deg
Panel Discharge Temp: 57.2 deg
Floor Discharge Temp: 82.4 deg


Driving (Auto) 69 deg selected 60 MPH
AC Press: 160 psi
Evap Temp: 36.5 deg
Panel Discharge Temp: 55.4 deg
Floor Discharge Temp: 84.2 deg

Driving Max AC (Selected) 60 MPH
AC Press: 165 psi
Evap Temp: 35.6 deg
Panel Discharge Temp: 62.6 deg
Floor Discharge Temp: 84.2 deg

Note: The Panel Discharge Temps (climbed) here - this would be the faster blower speed and the ram air (effect) blowing more air across the Evap (faster than it can absorb it) but note only a slight pressure rise.

So for using a (vent) thermometer - YES 60 degree vent temps are normal for 90-100 deg days
But the AC Pressure - should be near my PID results.
I noted that when in Idle - the higher the AC Pressure - the Evap Temp climbed a few degrees.

So the most important PIDs are the AC Press and the Evap Temp.
Now I included the Floor Discharge Temp - to show (as a reference) as even though the doors are closed off - for floor - this is the temp that is inside the housing.
Now since we have 35 deg Evap (on average) we need to factor the 84.2 deg temp as well as the (incoming air) temp - as even though the recirculation door is closed - its designed to still allow about 10% of fresh air in - so at the time of this test = 97 deg air.

So the incoming air + blower housing temps - blowing across the Evap (that's soaking up that heat) by the time it reaches the vents (output) its warmed up to an average (today's test) of approximately 60 deg

So for @Lablanca2019 - I see the output temps pretty much normal but I still see an issue with the AC Pressures - they are out of specs and I think there is an issue in the condenser and or the pressure sensor is biased (out of range) or possibly the Evap Temp or Panel Discharge Temp are not reading correctly - a full PID monitor would help greatly but focus needs to be on why the pressure climbs so high - at least now you have a (normal) range however this is for 1234,

Again - I wanted to do a real world test drive for a comparison - since I had the opportunity of high ambient temps
And my conclusion is that the design (aspect) of the air inlet door, not truly being fully closed and pulling in the hot air (is the main factor) in why the Ranger (feels) underperforming to some owners,
I know its working as it is designed (my test) as the Evap Temps are in the expected range.

 

[airline tech]

Did a second test drive today - and almost exact match of the first drive - so replicated results- I did move the air to the floor and then back to panel just to note reaction and would temp climb back up - and it does - I am most interested in the AC Pressure and Evap Temps - for a good baseline of what is common (normal) for the Ranger - only difference today is a 98 deg (OAT)

 

[Lablanca2019]

Ok. decided to do a - Live Data Drive since we were at 97 deg OAT
I wanted to do this for real world test vs (On Paper - this is how it works and what you should expect) to prove or disprove the descriptions.

So - I need to correct something and that is my - Vent Temps'
Yes - with a digital thermometer - I can get it to read in the 30's, but this is a temperature device that can update quickly and it is picking up the variance in air mixing.

I had a list of PIDs I wanted to monitor and still have some more to add such as the Cooling Fan - I have never been able to catch a - PCM Commanded (fan increase) via live data and am curious as to what are all the (must meet) parameters before it commands (increase) I may need to get my TopDon or Snappy on it - to see it.

Anyway - with the general basic AC Operation - its been a general range of the AC System when working properly - it should cool to about 35 - 40 deg below ambient
I proved this to be - True and normal for the Ranger

So here are my - Live Data Readings - Shortened

Ambient (OAT) 97 Deg
Note: The AC Pressure listed = the average pressure
Note: The Panel Discharge Temp = the PID Reading, if i use my digital and hold it (directed into the vent) - I can get it to read near the Evap Temp Readings
My (Old) gauge style therm - reads exactly as the PID.
So I need to correct my previous (results) here as they were not entirely accurate and true

Here are my results:

Idle: Auto (set to 69 deg) - Just after parking
AC Press: 205 psi
Evap Temp: 37.4 deg
Panel Discharge Temp: 57.2 deg
Floor Discharge Temp: 82.4 deg

Idle Max AC (Selected) - just switched to Max-AC from Auto
Note: Max AC generates max blower speed (which is displayed ) Steps - 82 Steps, so for ref this is how full blower speed is displayed, example in Auto - it was switching between 41-43 steps (speed)

I left it in MAX-AC for awhile and recorded - and this was my range (variance)
AC Press: 210 -270 psi
Evap Temp: 37.4 - 38.3
Panel Discharg Temp: 57.2 - 62.6 deg (Noted the higher the AC Press the discharge temp climbed as well as Evap Temp) so a good T-Shoot (note) for excessive AC Pressures
Floor Discharge Temp: 82.4 deg

Idle after sitting parked for 15 minutes - just switched back to Auto
AC Press: 270 psi
Evap Temp: 35.6 deg
Panel Discharge Temp: 57.2 deg
Floor Discharge Temp: 82.4 deg


Driving (Auto) 69 deg selected 60 MPH
AC Press: 160 psi
Evap Temp: 36.5 deg
Panel Discharge Temp: 55.4 deg
Floor Discharge Temp: 84.2 deg

Driving Max AC (Selected) 60 MPH
AC Press: 165 psi
Evap Temp: 35.6 deg
Panel Discharge Temp: 62.6 deg
Floor Discharge Temp: 84.2 deg

Note: The Panel Discharge Temps (climbed) here - this would be the faster blower speed and the ram air (effect) blowing more air across the Evap (faster than it can absorb it) but note only a slight pressure rise.

So for using a (vent) thermometer - YES 60 degree vent temps are normal for 90-100 deg days
But the AC Pressure - should be near my PID results.
I noted that when in Idle - the higher the AC Pressure - the Evap Temp climbed a few degrees.

So the most important PIDs are the AC Press and the Evap Temp.
Now I included the Floor Discharge Temp - to show (as a reference) as even though the doors are closed off - for floor - this is the temp that is inside the housing.
Now since we have 35 deg Evap (on average) we need to factor the 84.2 deg temp as well as the (incoming air) temp - as even though the recirculation door is closed - its designed to still allow about 10% of fresh air in - so at the time of this test = 97 deg air.

So the incoming air + blower housing temps - blowing across the Evap (that's soaking up that heat) by the time it reaches the vents (output) its warmed up to an average (today's test) of approximately 60 deg

So for @Lablanca2019 - I see the output temps pretty much normal but I still see an issue with the AC Pressures - they are out of specs and I think there is an issue in the condenser and or the pressure sensor is biased (out of range) or possibly the Evap Temp or Panel Discharge Temp are not reading correctly - a full PID monitor would help greatly but focus needs to be on why the pressure climbs so high - at least now you have a (normal) range however this is for 1234,

Again - I wanted to do a real world test drive for a comparison - since I had the opportunity of high ambient temps
And my conclusion is that the design (aspect) of the air inlet door, not truly being fully closed and pulling in the hot air (is the main factor) in why the Ranger (feels) underperforming to some owners,
I know its working as it is designed (my test) as the Evap Temps are in the expected range.

Thank you so much for all this knowledge it is helping me so much

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