Ford Dropped a Bombshell on Chips. GlobalFoundries Stock Is Taking Off.

Iowa Guy

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This quote below would seem they already have the ability to make them here. There still might be some start up delays but it sounds like they're already making them here in the US.

Also there are 2-3 other companies who have factories being built here in AZ right now which are supposed to open in 2024.
I sit in on supply chain calls daily, none of the existing chip makers have capacity that is not already sold or allocated to other commodities. If they did there would not be shortage. It will take at least a year for this to get back to normal
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I don't see things like semiconductor manufacturing ever being in house to car companies. Or, at least, until Amazon builds everything in our lives. :)
Why not?

At one time Ford made their own batteries, tires, chips, and even steel. Rogue Steel wasn't sold off 'til the 90's.

Over the last couple of decades the big 3, and all manufacturers of everything have moved to a more outsourced model. Due to the efficiencies of the global supply chain this was largely a good thing.

But now we're entering the "new normal." The lack of supply chain effeciencies are forcing folks to look elsewhere.

I mean, what do you do if you want or need something that's not available? You find somewhere to get it, or you make it yourself, right? Look at the homemade Go Fast Campers people are making, same thing.

If your continued existence hinged on you getting said part reliably going forward you would take the needed steps to keep them around.

Chips and batteries are so integral to a car manufacturer's success that it only makes sense to vertically integrate them.
 

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Why not?

...

Chips and batteries are so integral to a car manufacturer's success that it only makes sense to vertically integrate them.
Because it is disturbingly expensive and difficult to keep pace in the semiconductor manufacturing business. Look at the history of AMD and IBM to understand why companies have worked so hard to ditch the manufacturing side of the business. With the incredible investment needed, you need some serious volume to make that money back. It's why we are down to a small handful of worldwide fabs capable of producing cutting edge semiconductors.

Maintaining those lines is also very expensive. You need a lot of space, you need a lot of very specialized equipment, and most importantly you need a lot of people. That amount of overhead is absolutely crushing to a business during bad times.

The only way to survive today in the semiconductor manufacturing business is to have a widely diversified array of clients, so that when one customer/industry ebbs, another flows and makes up for the reduced demand.

I've worked for 6 different semiconductor companies. All but 2 went completely fabless and the business was significantly better off because of it.

What you'll see in the next 5 years is likely going to look a lot like the DRAM industry 10 years ago. Prices and demand went up, so everybody built a TON of manufacturing capacity. Then Samsung came along and drove prices down into the dirt. Companies were forced to sell their DRAM below cost just to avoid stockpiling ridiculous amounts of inventory. Warehouses literally started to fill up with product and prices continued to crater.

A number of companies went out of business, then there was a massive fire at one of those warehouses, and suddenly the market was fixed. Prices skyrocketed. The company I worked for lost millions of dollars each year for 5 years straight. Since I left, they've been making money hand-over-fist.

We will see something similar in the overall industry if things keep up. Manufacturing capacity will increase (at great expense). Then there will be some demand changes in the market and suddenly they will find themselves with more capacity than they know what to do with. THAT is where the overhead of owning your own manufacturing comes into play. No CEO wants to be stuck with that when the money isn't coming in, as it absolutely destroys their bottom line.
 

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Yea I know! I hate de-prioritization...can’t stand that shit..

Um..could you explain what that is? You know, for the less education-pheasants among us.. ?
You start out making a chip by growing a big crystal of really pure silicon and separating it into thin slices. It costs a certain amount of money to make each slice. In general, the newer the process, the more "stuff" you can squeeze into each slice and the more money you make off each wafer. Given all that, as a manufacturer, would you rather make cheap, lower density chips, or expensive, higher density chips? Deprioritization basically means that the low-profit stuff gets moved to the end of the line.

Pictures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafer_(electronics)
 


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I tend to suspect this is going to be another bold move by ford that results in them writing off billions of dollars in a few years.
 

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Because it is disturbingly expensive and difficult to keep pace in the semiconductor manufacturing business. Look at the history of AMD and IBM to understand why companies have worked so hard to ditch the manufacturing side of the business. With the incredible investment needed, you need some serious volume to make that money back. It's why we are down to a small handful of worldwide fabs capable of producing cutting edge semiconductors.

Maintaining those lines is also very expensive. You need a lot of space, you need a lot of very specialized equipment, and most importantly you need a lot of people. That amount of overhead is absolutely crushing to a business during bad times.

The only way to survive today in the semiconductor manufacturing business is to have a widely diversified array of clients, so that when one customer/industry ebbs, another flows and makes up for the reduced demand.

I've worked for 6 different semiconductor companies. All but 2 went completely fabless and the business was significantly better off because of it.

What you'll see in the next 5 years is likely going to look a lot like the DRAM industry 10 years ago. Prices and demand went up, so everybody built a TON of manufacturing capacity. Then Samsung came along and drove prices down into the dirt. Companies were forced to sell their DRAM below cost just to avoid stockpiling ridiculous amounts of inventory. Warehouses literally started to fill up with product and prices continued to crater.

A number of companies went out of business, then there was a massive fire at one of those warehouses, and suddenly the market was fixed. Prices skyrocketed. The company I worked for lost millions of dollars each year for 5 years straight. Since I left, they've been making money hand-over-fist.

We will see something similar in the overall industry if things keep up. Manufacturing capacity will increase (at great expense). Then there will be some demand changes in the market and suddenly they will find themselves with more capacity than they know what to do with. THAT is where the overhead of owning your own manufacturing comes into play. No CEO wants to be stuck with that when the money isn't coming in, as it absolutely destroys their bottom line.
Off topic, but what did you do? During my time in semiconductors I was in a support lab. Doing testing and data collection for development, failure analysis, etc. Fortunately I didn't need to spend a lot of time in the fab.
 

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Because it is disturbingly expensive and difficult to keep pace in the semiconductor manufacturing business. Look at the history of AMD and IBM to understand why companies have worked so hard to ditch the manufacturing side of the business. With the incredible investment needed, you need some serious volume to make that money back. It's why we are down to a small handful of worldwide fabs capable of producing cutting edge semiconductors.

Maintaining those lines is also very expensive. You need a lot of space, you need a lot of very specialized equipment, and most importantly you need a lot of people. That amount of overhead is absolutely crushing to a business during bad times.

The only way to survive today in the semiconductor manufacturing business is to have a widely diversified array of clients, so that when one customer/industry ebbs, another flows and makes up for the reduced demand.

I've worked for 6 different semiconductor companies. All but 2 went completely fabless and the business was significantly better off because of it.

What you'll see in the next 5 years is likely going to look a lot like the DRAM industry 10 years ago. Prices and demand went up, so everybody built a TON of manufacturing capacity. Then Samsung came along and drove prices down into the dirt. Companies were forced to sell their DRAM below cost just to avoid stockpiling ridiculous amounts of inventory. Warehouses literally started to fill up with product and prices continued to crater.

A number of companies went out of business, then there was a massive fire at one of those warehouses, and suddenly the market was fixed. Prices skyrocketed. The company I worked for lost millions of dollars each year for 5 years straight. Since I left, they've been making money hand-over-fist.

We will see something similar in the overall industry if things keep up. Manufacturing capacity will increase (at great expense). Then there will be some demand changes in the market and suddenly they will find themselves with more capacity than they know what to do with. THAT is where the overhead of owning your own manufacturing comes into play. No CEO wants to be stuck with that when the money isn't coming in, as it absolutely destroys their bottom line.
That definitely makes sense. And I can't counter your industry experience. However I have just two points.

Car manufacturers don't seem to have to worry about "keeping up." They are using antiquated technology currently.

Also, you seem to be assuming that at some point things will go "back to normal." While I hope you are right, I don't see any evidence to support that. We're two years into this bullshit and it is not getting any better.
 

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Car manufacturers don't seem to have to worry about "keeping up." They are using antiquated technology currently.
That will only work until it doesn't. The carmakers are really caught up in old-fashioned "we're going to test this until it's perfect and never change it" design patterns that just don't really work for modern software/hardware solutions. (If they actually tested it until it worked I'd accept it, but they routinely release stuff that doesn't work well, and all the layers of bureaucracy simply make it unlikely that a customer will ever see a fixed version.) You can keep doing that as long as all of your competitors do the same thing, but I doubt that competitive pressures and new players in the market will let them continue to keep doing things the same old way because customers will eventually stop accepting this.
 

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Off topic, but what did you do? During my time in semiconductors I was in a support lab. Doing testing and data collection for development, failure analysis, etc. Fortunately I didn't need to spend a lot of time in the fab.
I'm still in the industry, I have worked mainly in product qualification and test development, and now I'm in a product engineering role. I work with a lot of test data, driving failure analysis and fab feedback. We find a lot of manufacturing related issues.


That definitely makes sense. And I can't counter your industry experience. However I have just two points.

Car manufacturers don't seem to have to worry about "keeping up." They are using antiquated technology currently.

Also, you seem to be assuming that at some point things will go "back to normal." While I hope you are right, I don't see any evidence to support that. We're two years into this bullshit and it is not getting any better.
There are certainly arguments to be made for integrating chip manufacturing. If they can work a deal with a fab to buy old fabs or equipment for cheap, then they might be able to make it viable. The problem is that the cost of those old technologies starts to rise at some point when you need to maintain the facilities. And then at some point it will become obsolete, the chips they use today will not be the same chips they need in 10 years (due to safety requirements most likely), and so will their facilities be able to make the new chips they need? If not, what do you do now after you've invested all of this time and money into your chip manufacturing?

Well you outsource it so that somebody else has to worry about all of that and you just need to find somebody that can make your chips.

The company I work for now is fabless. Vertical integration of the fabs was CRITICAL (in the eyes of us engineers anyway) for identifying and correcting manufacturing issues. It was a huge advantage that we had. But now? We have SIGNIFICANTLY (like orders of magnitude) fewer defects now, despite being in a significantly more dense node. Our yields are higher than ever despite the fact that these are the most advanced chips ever released by us.

Why? Because one fab can use the data of hundreds of customers and hundreds of thousands of wafer starts to identify a much wider array of issues than we could. They will know the root cause of an issue sometimes before we even notice that we have an issue. And most importantly driving down defectivity is literally one of their most critical roles as a foundry. There are economies of scale at work here that are really difficult to comprehend for those of us in the industry, nevermind those on the outside.

Edit: GF has been losing a lot of money for quite a long time. There is a reason they went public: additional funding and a shifting of risk away from Mubadala. They were sick and tiring of dumping hundreds of millions of investment capital into a business that was not generating a return. If a dedicated fab struggles to make money during a chip boom, how is a company like Ford going to do it?
 

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all I heard was these factories don't have enough dampers...?
 

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I'm still in the industry, I have worked mainly in product qualification and test development, and now I'm in a product engineering role. I work with a lot of test data, driving failure analysis and fab feedback. We find a lot of manufacturing related issues.




There are certainly arguments to be made for integrating chip manufacturing. If they can work a deal with a fab to buy old fabs or equipment for cheap, then they might be able to make it viable. The problem is that the cost of those old technologies starts to rise at some point when you need to maintain the facilities. And then at some point it will become obsolete, the chips they use today will not be the same chips they need in 10 years (due to safety requirements most likely), and so will their facilities be able to make the new chips they need? If not, what do you do now after you've invested all of this time and money into your chip manufacturing?

Well you outsource it so that somebody else has to worry about all of that and you just need to find somebody that can make your chips.

The company I work for now is fabless. Vertical integration of the fabs was CRITICAL (in the eyes of us engineers anyway) for identifying and correcting manufacturing issues. It was a huge advantage that we had. But now? We have SIGNIFICANTLY (like orders of magnitude) fewer defects now, despite being in a significantly more dense node. Our yields are higher than ever despite the fact that these are the most advanced chips ever released by us.

Why? Because one fab can use the data of hundreds of customers and hundreds of thousands of wafer starts to identify a much wider array of issues than we could. They will know the root cause of an issue sometimes before we even notice that we have an issue. And most importantly driving down defectivity is literally one of their most critical roles as a foundry. There are economies of scale at work here that are really difficult to comprehend for those of us in the industry, nevermind those on the outside.

Edit: GF has been losing a lot of money for quite a long time. There is a reason they went public: additional funding and a shifting of risk away from Mubadala. They were sick and tiring of dumping hundreds of millions of investment capital into a business that was not generating a return. If a dedicated fab struggles to make money during a chip boom, how is a company like Ford going to do it?
I certainly appreciate the insight.

Let me just add that Ford isn't trying to make money on chips. They're trying to not loose money. At some point they've done the math. There must be an acceptable amount of loss if it continues to allow them to make money on cars.

If a company can turn revenues of $160 billion and supply chain issues drop that to $127 billion (real world Ford revenues 2018/2020) would it not make sense to spend a couple of billion to restore revenues of 40 billion?

I'm just a milkman, but you gotta spend money to make money.
 

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I certainly appreciate the insight.

Let me just add that Ford isn't trying to make money on chips. They're trying to not loose money. At some point they've done the math. There must be an acceptable amount of loss if it continues to allow them to make money on cars.

If a company can turn revenues of $160 billion and supply chain issues drop that to $127 billion (real world Ford revenues 2018/2020) would it not make sense to spend a couple of billion to restore revenues of 40 billion?

I'm just a milkman, but you gotta spend money to make money.
You gotta have talent to do the work. A skilled Phd will cost you 200 grand at the minimum. I know 10-100 million in salaries might sound like chicken feed compared to a billion, but it all adds up.
 

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I certainly appreciate the insight.

Let me just add that Ford isn't trying to make money on chips. They're trying to not loose money. At some point they've done the math. There must be an acceptable amount of loss if it continues to allow them to make money on cars.

If a company can turn revenues of $160 billion and supply chain issues drop that to $127 billion (real world Ford revenues 2018/2020) would it not make sense to spend a couple of billion to restore revenues of 40 billion?

I'm just a milkman, but you gotta spend money to make money.
All completely valid points, and certainly in the long run it seems at least partial vertical integration of the chip manufacturing would likely be a prudent decision. The problem is getting a CEO willing to stake their reputation on implementing a very expensive plan. Once you've made that investment, it's a hard ship to steer without risking a huge loss.

However, this is an issue within the semiconductor industry as well. I've had a few Joint Venture projects that I've worked on. There were two competitors building a fab together to reduce the risk to each company. Imagine how much sense it would make for the automakers to unite behind a common technology platform (not shared chips necessarily, but a shared development ecosystem tailored specifically to auto maker needs). It would make it easier for companies to modernize, it would help them all keep pace with safety needs (which could include shared chips), and it would reduce the development cost for any one player. I just don't see that ever happening. Edit: I should say I would be very surprised, however with the number of JVs that we've seen (Ford/Mazda, Toyota/Subaru, and many more), it's not impossible. Perhaps this is the catalyst we need to push auto makers to be more cooperative where it matters most.
 

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Let me just add that Ford isn't trying to make money on chips. They're trying to not loose money. At some point they've done the math. There must be an acceptable amount of loss if it continues to allow them to make money on cars.
For some perspective on this, I once worked for a division that provided the base library (along with a set of industry leading, custom timing rules) for chip design. This library was used by a number of different design teams. But the actual division I worked for struggled to earn a profit. We generated a lot of "internal" revenue, but it didn't equate directly to $$ in the bank. There was never a time that we didn't have to justify our existence. Budgets were repeatedly slashed because we were a cost center. All expense, no revenue (in the eyes of the bean counters anyway). It made for a very stressful environment.

Ford is a public company. As such, there will always be constant pressure to increase short-term profits. Engineering salaries are a huge hit to the bottom line, and it's hard to measure their contribution to the top line sometimes. It's kind of like most IT departments. If they do a good job, nobody notices them and execs have a hard time understanding why the costs are so high. So they cut costs, which attracts less capable employees. Suddenly you're saving a fortune on overhead, but your computer systems have problems all the time. Semiconductor development falls into the same trap. And once you slip and fall behind, it can be hard to catch up.

My final point is that making a reliable semiconductor fab takes a lot of work. It is a constant battle to find and fix tool issues. These aren't the type of thing you just pay to setup once and it runs itself, so you need to bring in the expertise to not only get the operation running, but also to keep it running. If this was easy, more people would be doing it.
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