Ford Will Lose $3b in 2023 - on EVs

[MrBirdman330]

When Toyota introduced the Prius, they lost $10k per car sold. Toyota pushed it for world wide sales, more units they sold, the more they could work to make it break even in the end. When you limit production and market (location) on product that is costing money rather than making it, sooner or later you will bleed out.

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[P. A. Schilke]

When Toyota introduced the Prius, they lost $10k per car sold. Toyota pushed it for world wide sales, more units they sold, the more they could work to make it break even in the end. When you limit production and market (location) on product that is costing money rather than making it, sooner or later you will bleed out.

Oh come on Nathan. The Ford addage was " we loose money on every vehicle, but we make it up in increased volume of sales...." Ford Escort was an example...we sold a ton of them world wide and never made a profit on them... Trucks, on the other hand including Vans and SUV CUV's have been the money maker. My volume on Ranger 4G was 350,000 per year, 2nd only to F Series. Car sales...pretty much below any Truck Engineering platform... Exception was the Windstar, which we called the Windlemon inside Fort Truck Engineering...

Best,
Phil

 

[MrBirdman330]

Oh come on Nathan. The Ford addage was " we loose money on every vehicle, but we make it up in increased volume of sales...." Ford Escort was an example...we sold a ton of them world wide and never made a profit on them... Trucks, on the other hand including Vans and SUV CUV's have been the money maker. My volume on Ranger 4G was 350,000 per year, 2nd only to F Series. Car sales...pretty much below any Truck Engineering platform... Exception was the Windstar, which we called the Windlemon inside Fort Truck Engineering...

Best,
Phil

Except the North American Escort had nothing to do with the Global Escort, that predecessor to the "One Ford" slogan. One Ford for the Globe one Ford for North America. Also you missed something, I said Prius that pesky little Hybrid which drives 10 mph or slower in the left hand lane which is more relevant to the subject of EVs at hand a Prius in the UK aside being RHD is the same Prius in Germany and that same Prius in Germany is what you find in the US. In case people also don't understand, the Japanese know how to make a profit selling cars as most of their markets are cars or wagon dominate line ups with maybe an SUV, CUV, a Hilux and a commercial van.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

Except the North American Escort had nothing to do with the Global Escort, that predecessor to the "One Ford" slogan. One Ford for the Globe one Ford for North America. Also you missed something, I said Prius that pesky little Hybrid which drives 10 mph or slower in the left hand lane which is more relevant to the subject of EVs at hand a Prius in the UK aside being RHD is the same Prius in Germany and that same Prius in Germany is what you find in the US. In case people also don't understand, the Japanese know how to make a profit selling cars as most of their markets are cars or wagon dominate line ups with maybe an SUV, CUV, a Hilux and a commercial van.

I guess the joke was lost on you... Oh well.

 

[MrBirdman330]

I guess the joke was lost on you... Oh well.

There is no joke.

 

[P. A. Schilke]

There is no joke.

I was at Ford when the Escort was rolled out as the World car. Goal was one car fits all. Did not work as and example Seating. North America wanted soft and Europe wanted hard as a brick.
Regulatory difference in lighting, etc made design changes to fit into the arena for the Escort and as such there was no one size fits all. So no joke... Then other changes until the design was not World at all. Much like 5G Ranger which I saw in 2016 in New Zealand and Australia way before North American 5G, which differs greatly from the Aussi designed 5G.

Since you are so sure on Toyota. Provide data that the cars are the same in every market...

Hope your thin skin serves you well. You will get no help from me for sure...but being a know it all...no biggie for you, eh?


Phil

 

[MrBirdman330]

I was at Ford when the Escort was rolled out as the World car. Goal was one car fits all. Did not work as and example Seating. North America wanted soft and Europe wanted hard as a brick.
Regulatory difference in lighting, etc made design changes to fit into the arena for the Escort and as such there was no one size fits all. So no joke... Then other changes until the design was not World at all. Much like 5G Ranger which I saw in 2016 in New Zealand and Australia way before North American 5G, which differs greatly from the Aussi designed 5G.

Since you are so sure on Toyota. Provide data that the cars are the same in every market...

Hope your thin skin serves you well. You will get no help from me for sure...but being a know it all...no biggie for you, eh?


Phil

Funny you talk about "regulations" when the North American Ford Escort was the Laser in the Pacific Market... Simple fact is here's the break down Toyota isn't the only manufacturer that is able to keep the model the same global with "minor differences" and keep in mind only 14% of the globe is RHD. Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volvo, the late Pre-GM take over of Saab, Alfa Romeo, Land Rover can sell/sold their vehicles here without the extensive design changes. The same "minor differences" tuned market specific. IE adding a reflector, dual read out speedometer that has MPH and KM maybe a North American only interior trim color. I can buy a headlight, a brake light, headlight switch, radio etc from any European shop or wrecking yard and put it on no problems. Ford and GM completely change their vehicles for the North American Market. I can't buy a Focus Headlamp from Germany and put on on because the design difference is just enough, brake light same thing, headlight switch entirely different even the steering wheels don't match.

Chrysler to a degree makes some more pointless changes. I can give you a "Is it live or is it Memorex" type example of money wasted for the North American/Mexico market on the WK2 Grand Cherokee that will leave your head spinning.

Toyota only has very VERY few global models as they build market specific, the Prius is a global model made specifically in Japan it the only Toyota sold in North America still assembled in Japan. The only minor market differences are in the lighting regulations. Refer back to about what I said on European brands, I drive a RHD Mercedes Vito daily for work and it's near full British Spec minus headlights and Rear Foglight are tuned to LHD. I still surprise people with my knowledge and understanding of European lighting regs as my Vito has the special single side parking light option, I can choose if I want the driver side or the left hand passenger side parking lights only to light up with the headlight. If you look at the German built models in the US they have that option. Also just look at certain specific parts, there is this upper case E in a circle and often has a small number next to it's lower right hand area. Which indicates it passes European regulations a standard used pretty much all around the globe and here too. Jeep uses many E spec parts. GM kinda but Ford hardly does.

So the point of it here is again is that Ford is too centered and will bleed out on the EV market because it's about quantity. There is no across the board EV model or even Hybrid that they can sell globally like what Toyota did to end up even in the long run. Look how long it took Tesla to start making a profit. I'm no fan of Elon but he took a DOA EV manufacturer and got it to succeed barely where nobody else really has at this point. Rivian is barely, Workhorse died when my Employer the USPS chose Oshkosh for our Next Gen Delivery Vehicle the NGDV. Lordstown is practically out of Money and can't assemble anymore of it's truck. I think I read it's only assembled 50 or less. I am not a gambling man but I'd call Vegas and ask odds on GM surviving after 2035 without a Government bailout yet again same with Volkswagen in North America. One thing I agree with both Toyota and Porsche, is that alternative and synthetic fuels that are clean and made from renewables is the future. EV tech is too limited and works best as a Hybrid system being supplemental.

 

[CB750F]

Just saying, the Prius is not the only Toyota exclusively made in Japan.
The GT86 is made in Guma.

 

[CB750F]

Ford states the range a 230 miles, @75% SOC , it's 172 miles, figure towing a light trailer it will be 86 miles, throw in any headwinds and a heavier trailer and easily below 70 miles Car and driver went 100 miles towing a 6k trailer and with the bigger Lightning batt pack. Nevertheless maybe the gents in Nebraska will be gracious enough to make a youtube video for our benefit.

Ok, I did not know the numbers, sad.

 

[CO2Ranger]

Tesla isn't sharing or partnering with anyone anytime soon. I'm in total agreement there. I was thinking more like partnerships between Toyota and Subaru. They worked together on both the BRZ and GR86. They did the same on their EV's as I understand. I realize it won't likely happen on a large scale ever, but auto makers can save on development costs by partnering more on new technology and still profit off the end product while lowering the cost to the consumer. Ford and GM partner on transmission development as well, so the concept isn't uncommon.

To be honest, Tesla's patents have been identified by them as open source and they've pledged not to defend them save for some pretty reasonable caveats. This doesn't apply to their battery tech unfortunately, but everything else is pretty much free to use.

Now I need to get out of here. EV threads get me in trouble.

 

[dtech]

To be honest, Tesla's patents have been identified by them as open source and they've pledged not to defend them save for some pretty reasonable caveats. This doesn't apply to their battery tech unfortunately, but everything else is pretty much free to use.

Now I need to get out of here. EV threads get me in trouble.

I feel somewhat safe posting informative factual EV info - so long as my identify and place of residence remain unknown. But I make sure my doors are locked, alarm system activated and personal defense systems at ready.

 

[dtech]

Insurance companies are loving it. EVs and hybrids are 50+ percent higher to insure due to high cost of repair and higher frequency of being Totaled. My 80 year old dad bought a hybrid Accord Monday without checking. His insurance is $2200 for a year. Then in 10 years we’re going to have mountains of these fire hazards laying around because doing anything with the batteries is very labor intensive and hazardous.

Maybe maybe not - recycling is being addressed, link below to one company's approach.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/01/17/1066915/tesla-former-cto-battery-recycling/#:~:text

 

[TJC]

Tesla explains how to drag race the Model S after the Dodge Demon destroyed it at the strip
The new 2023 Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170 on Monday claimed the world's quickest car title with the ability to accelerate from 0-60 mph in 1.66 seconds on a drag strip.

The 1,025 horsepower muscle car has also been certified with a quarter-mile time of 8.91 seconds that makes it the first production car from a major American brand to break the nine-second barrier.

That includes Tesla, which says the 1,020 hp Model S Plaid can hit 60 mph in 1.99 seconds and cover a quarter-mile in 9.23 seconds.

Video at the above link!

 

[MrBirdman330]

Just saying, the Prius is not the only Toyota exclusively made in Japan.
The GT86 is made in Guma.

That's not a Toyota that's a Subaru with a Toyota badge. Gunma is the home of Subaru which is on Japanese License plates actually for the Gunma Prefect. In the Japanese market it isn't uncommon where one manufacturer designs and tests a model then shares it with another or sometimes two manufacturers. The Toyota bB aka Scion XB, Daihatsu Materia, and Subaru Dex. Same thing with the Supra, it's just a BMW with Toyota badges because BMW had an Inline 6 and Toyota was scared to not sell a Supra without an I6 engine. Nissan dropped the RB20 series I6 for a RB V6 in the R35 GT-R. Yeah it got GT-R purists boxers in a twist but the car still sold regardless. Toyota can make excuses all day about "price" but with their TGNA platform that is universal they could have built in house a Supra and kept the cost down.

 

[daczone]

Reported in Wall Street Journal and Reuters:

March 23 (Reuters) - Ford Motor Co (F.N) expects its electric vehicle business unit to lose $3 billion this year, but remains on track to achieve a pretax margin of 8% by late 2026, the company said.

Chunk of change but Farley is committed, and the $3B is pre tax. It's only money after all, and nobody said chasing Elon would be cheap.

I just got my Lightning Reservation... It's going to be a hard NO for me on this one. The price has gone up $20K I'm guessing there are a lot of people backing out of these.

A Tesla Model 3 is still less than 19% of the launch price. The Ford Lightning is 34% higher.

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