Transmission Unable to Shift Into Reverse - Check Engine Light

[tony808]

2019 Lariat FX4 - 42,000 Miles - Under 5-Year Powertrain Warranty Until March 2025

Tried to shift into reverse to leave the grocery store parking lot. The "R" indicator on the dash and the backup camera began rapidly flickering on/off, when I released the brake pedal the truck slowly started driving forward. Check engine light came on. After cycling through park, drive, neutral, reverse, many times, I was able to get into reverse and back out slowly. Got home and used my ODB-II scanner and pulled these codes:

P0708: Transmission Range Sensor Circuit High Input
P0713: Transmission Fluid Temperature Sensor Circuit High Input
P2803: Transmission Range Sensor "B" Circuit High

After waiting 2-weeks for my appointment the dealer was quickly able to reproduce the issue and pull the check engine codes. After two days of diagnostics they found that there is an issue with circuit RET24 that is preventing them from further troubleshooting and identifying the problem. They are saying they found that pin 62 of connector c175e was pulled out and they are unable to re-seat the pin. Their solution is to replace the entire wire harness assembly KU5Z12A581 for $1,946.37 !! The truck is fully stock and is primarily driven on paved roads, not much hard core off roading that would have been able to rattle a pin loose from a connector harness. Here is the full write-up from the tech at my dealer:

"verified concern. scanned for codes found numerous loss communication codes to tcm along with numerous TR and TFT codes and other transmission codes. looked through all codes for common issues, ppt tests provided are inconclusive due to symptom vehicle is having with codes, also had no communication to pcm when concern was present. referred to wiring diagram to complete testing. found all codes present share common ground. verified proper power and grounds to pcm along with transmission. further inspect and found issue with circuit RET24. found pin does not lock into c175e and pin 62 pulled out. unable to lock pin into connector. need to replace c175E only service as an engine harness, priced parts to complete repair"

My dealer still doesn't know the full problem and wants me to pay them to replace the entire harness so they can continue troubleshooting. I spoke to Ford corporate customer relations and they are saying the wire harness is only covered under the 3-year bumper-to-bumper warranty and not the 5-year powertrain warranty, they went as far as saying I should have read the fine print regarding the powertrain warranty and this is why they recommend we purchase additional bumper-to-bumper warranty. Apparently the powertrain warranty only covers mechanical components of the transmission. I disagreed and argued that the wire harness is essential to the function of the powertrain but they wouldn't budge. Basically I'm SOL and need to pay the dealer to continue troubleshooting.

Any recommendations here? Should I contact a lawyer about my powertrain warranty claim or does the "fine print" fully protect Ford?

I'm confident I could find a way to re-seat or bridge the connection for pin 62 of that connector myself... but then there is further electrical troubleshooting that I would need to do...

Attached are the documents from my dealer.

I know this is a long read - much appreciated if you have any advice.

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[Dr_Strangelove]

Any recommendations here? Should I contact a lawyer about my powertrain warranty claim or does the "fine print" fully protect Ford?

Obligatory I am not a Lawyer but I would not advise you to take this route as the onus will be on you to prove that Ford's contract was either in bad faith or services stated in said contract were not delivered which you've already found out is not the case. (Your belief that the wiring harness should be included will not qualify as evidence as you are correct, Ford will state that they have listed the components that they consider to be the Powertrain and the wiring harness is not one of them.)

ALSO (edit) - I forgot to mention, the moment you say "lawyer" they will stop talking to you and it will be between their lawyer and yours...

My recommendation is you call Ford Care back and put on you butteriest sweetest "I Love Ford" hat and let them know how heartbroken you are as the longtime owner of this truck, you'd hate to lose faith in Ford as a company in the future... and hope for some goodwill. They will potentially share the cost with you if you are a gent about this.

Good luck!

 

[tony808]

Thanks for the input, that makes sense. I haven't mentioned the word "lawyer" to them yet as I didn't want to close any doors.

It couldn't hurt to call them again but I need to cool off a while before doing that.

 

[dtech]

You might want to read Ford's warranty - there are a number of parts that people believe are covered under the powertrain warranty and turns out they are not. Seems odd about the damaged connector , could possibly have happened in assembly and it held up until now, Ford I believe leads major mfg in quality issues, you might argue that it was likely an assembly defect and see if Ford helps you out. This goes back decades but I had a Taurus SHO where a number of bolts were cross threaded, clearly during assembly and Ford just put liquid metal or some sort of sealant to get it out the door. Quality is not job 1.

 

[TJC]

You might want to read Ford's warranty - there are a number of parts that people believe are covered under the powertrain warranty and turns out they are not. Seems odd about the damaged connector , could possibly have happened in assembly and it held up until now, Ford I believe leads major mfg in quality issues, you might argue that it was likely an assembly defect and see if Ford helps you out. This goes back decades but I had a Taurus SHO where a number of bolts were cross threaded, clearly during assembly and Ford just put liquid metal or some sort of sealant to get it out the door. Quality is not job 1.

Maybe a couple of tubes of JB Weld are issued to each Assembly line employee once a month!

 

[RangerBill]

After waiting 2-weeks for my appointment the dealer was quickly able to reproduce the issue and pull the check engine codes. After two days of diagnostics they found that there is an issue with circuit RET24 that is preventing them from further troubleshooting and identifying the problem. They are saying they found that pin 62 of connector c175e was pulled out and they are unable to re-seat the pin.

Here is C175E pinout if you want to try to reseat pin 62 yourself.

 

[dtech]

Maybe a couple of tubes of JB Weld are issued to each Assembly line employee once a month!

yeah and for the unsuspecting buyers maybe Ford should include a tube of preparation H in the deal along with instructions on how to disable the BMS.

 

[tony808]

Seems odd about the damaged connector , could possibly have happened in assembly and it held up until now

That does seem possible. Most of these connector bodies have a locking geometry to prevent pins from just falling out.

 

[tony808]

Here is C175E pinout if you want to try to reseat pin 62 yourself.

Thanks for the pinout! I'll post photos here if I decide to go the DIY route.

 

[Msfitoy]

This is the second thread today about tranny going south...sad...

 

[RangerBill]

This is the second thread today about tranny going south...sad...

I believe his is a wiring issue at the PCM connector causing his problems, not necessarily a transmission problem.

 

[airline tech]

Tried to shift into reverse to leave the grocery store parking lot. The "R" indicator on the dash and the backup camera began rapidly flickering on/off, when I released the brake pedal the truck slowly started driving forward. Check engine light came on. After cycling through park, drive, neutral, reverse, many times, I was able to get into reverse and back out slowly. Got home and used my ODB-II scanner and pulled these codes:

P0708: Transmission Range Sensor Circuit High Input
P0713: Transmission Fluid Temperature Sensor Circuit High Input
P2803: Transmission Range Sensor "B" Circuit High

After waiting 2-weeks for my appointment the dealer was quickly able to reproduce the issue and pull the check engine codes. After two days of diagnostics they found that there is an issue with circuit RET24 that is preventing them from further troubleshooting and identifying the problem. They are saying they found that pin 62 of connector c175e was pulled out and they are unable to re-seat the pin. Their solution is to replace the entire wire harness assembly KU5Z12A581 for $1,946.37 !! The truck is fully stock and is primarily driven on paved roads, not much hard core off roading that would have been able to rattle a pin loose from a connector harness. Here is the full write-up from the tech at my dealer:

"verified concern. scanned for codes found numerous loss communication codes to tcm along with numerous TR and TFT codes and other transmission codes. looked through all codes for common issues, ppt tests provided are inconclusive due to symptom vehicle is having with codes, also had no communication to pcm when concern was present. referred to wiring diagram to complete testing. found all codes present share common ground. verified proper power and grounds to pcm along with transmission. further inspect and found issue with circuit RET24. found pin does not lock into c175e and pin 62 pulled out. unable to lock pin into connector. need to replace c175E only service as an engine harness, priced parts to complete repair"

My dealer still doesn't know the full problem and wants me to pay them to replace the entire harness so they can continue troubleshooting. I spoke to Ford corporate customer relations and they are saying the wire harness is only covered under the 3-year bumper-to-bumper warranty and not the 5-year powertrain warranty, they went as far as saying I should have read the fine print regarding the powertrain warranty and this is why they recommend we purchase additional bumper-to-bumper warranty. Apparently the powertrain warranty only covers mechanical components of the transmission. I disagreed and argued that the wire harness is essential to the function of the powertrain but they wouldn't budge. Basically I'm SOL and need to pay the dealer to continue troubleshooting.

Any recommendations here? Should I contact a lawyer about my powertrain warranty claim or does the "fine print" fully protect Ford?

I'm confident I could find a way to re-seat or bridge the connection for pin 62 of that connector myself... but then there is further electrical troubleshooting that I would need to do...

Attached are the documents from my dealer.

I know this is a long read - much appreciated if you have any advice.

My thought is - It's not a defective or improperly installed contact pin that vibrated / backed out of the connector.
It is the result of a short in the circuit, and it overheated the pin (which Pin #62) is Ground (Signal Return)
So, it melted the locking (recess) for the pin (if it is the connector) plastic locking recess.

In the Ford manuals there is not a separate part number listed for the connector and only comes as a harness assembly, however if the connector itself is good and only the (locking tab) is damaged on the pin - it is replaceable via a piece of wire with the contact pin already crimped on it - so you De-Pin old and Re-Pin new and then cut and but splice the wire back onto the harness.

If the connector is damaged:
With some digging you can probably locate the connector (Itself) and just swap the connector, but since a part number is not listed - will be difficult.

If only the (PIN) they are sold in a kit
NOTE: The Only sold in a package of 5

So, this would be a cheaper option (IF) it is only the pin is damaged, but most likely the recess plastic is melted, and the pin cannot lock in place.

So, this would correct (THIS) issue but still need to Troubleshoot the cause for this to happen.

So, this boils down to the cause this is a 9 Volt (VREF) circuit feeding power to:

TSS / ISSS and TR Sensor (9-Volt) VREF
Power from a separate supply feeding the TFT
and
A shared ground (signal return) this feeds the PCM C175E Pin #62

This is why you have all 3 codes (they lost ground)
The TFT is (Open)
The TR Range codes (circuit HIGH) can be from the high resistance from the damaged ground or it can be from a short.

The POINT is that if this is caused from (The side effect) of a short withing the TR Range sensor or Speed Sensor etc, It SHOULD be covered.
As I suspect the TR Range sensor is shorted and the damaged pin was caused from this.

I truly feel that this is the case, something else caused this and it just falls into will Ford cover damaged wiring form a part that is covered under the Powertrain Warranty?
Thats the question that needs to be discussed with the dealer & ford.

TR Range Sensor:
Pin #4 = 9-Volt VREF
Pin #1 = Signal Ground for the TR & TFT

TR Range:
Pin #2 - Signal Sensor A
Pin #3 - Signal Sensor B

I could be wrong here, but I strongly feel the issue is deeper than just the damaged pin, the only other (Possible) is that the pin had some corrosion on it - increasing resistance and it got hot and melted.

 

[Jhbryaniv]

Thanks for the input, that makes sense. I haven't mentioned the word "lawyer" to them yet as I didn't want to close any doors.

It couldn't hurt to call them again but I need to cool off a while before doing that.

And when you call back just say I called about this issue before and explain that it was really a shock to you and you probably said some thing you shouldn't have. Apologize for that - even if you said or did nothing wrong...

This really is a bummer to hear about on a low mileage vehicle.

 

[tony808]

The POINT is that if this is caused from (The side effect) of a short withing the TR Range sensor or Speed Sensor etc, It SHOULD be covered.
As I suspect the TR Range sensor is shorted and the damaged pin was caused from this.

I truly feel that this is the case, something else caused this and it just falls into will Ford cover damaged wiring form a part that is covered under the Powertrain Warranty?
Thats the question that needs to be discussed with the dealer & ford

Excellent analysis, thank you @airline tech

Your hypothesis makes a lot of sense that a short circuit heated up and melted the connector, causing the ground pin to disconnect. Based on the last diagram you shared, the TSS, TR, and TFT sensors all reside within the transmission and therefore should be covered under warranty if one of those sensors is indeed gone bad.

I re-read my warranty document and here is exactly what is covered.
Your vehicle’s Powertrain components are covered for five years or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first. The extended coverage applies to the
Engine: all internal lubricated parts, cylinder block, cylinder heads, electrical fuel pump, powertrain control module, engine mounts, flywheel, injection pump, manifold (exhaust and intake), manifold bolts, oil pan, oil pump, seals and gaskets, engine thermostat, engine thermostat housing, timing chain cover, timing chain (gears or belt), turbocharger/supercharger unit, valve covers, water pump;
Transmission: all internal parts, clutch cover, seals and gaskets, torque converter, transfer case (including all internal parts), transmission case, transmission mounts;

I think I have a good case here and will be going back down to my local dealer today to discuss this with them. I did end up speaking with Ford care again yesterday, they again told me that they wouldn't cover the wiring harness under warranty, but would be open to more discussion if my dealer insists it is a warranty repair. We'll see how it goes, I'll post an update here later.

 

[tony808]

Unfortunately the tech who found the disconnected pin was out of the shop today. I have to go back on Monday to talk to him. The techs I spoke with today weren't the ones working on my truck and didn't know any details about the damaged pin. What they did say was that the other tech attempted to superglue the pin in place, hence the shiny appearance around pin 62. Looking at it myself I couldn't tell if the plastic connector body was melted or just smashed up from them attempting to seat the connector repeatedly with force. The tech I spoke with today speculated that this pin was installed smashed like this from the factory. More details to come on Monday. Here are the photos of my connector C175E:

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