DeathRanger
Well-Known Member
Tesla also has certified repair shops for more remote places that don't have a service center nearby
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Deleted member 1634
There are also plenty of areas in the US where there isn't a Ford dealer within 90 miles either. Or there is a single one and that's the one you're "stuck" with. Which is also an argument against the "just find a dealer you like" that's been mentioned by some earlier in this thread. For some people that's not a viable option.
To an authorized service center. In the aviation business we don't have dealers or repair shops, we authorize and train already existing repair shops to work on our specific product. So you could have your local shop down the road be Ford certified to do warranty repairs. Along with GM, Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, etc. A lot of people already take their vehicles to those types of shops for regular work anyways.
KNI
Well-Known Member
If someone said that "I'm selling you a car, but you can't sell it until a year" I would just tell him/her to f.. off. If I buy it, it's mine, period. No fancy electronics going to change that.
VAMike
Well-Known Member
No, I actually didn't. Please reread. I asked why I should have to find a better dealer, because I don't want any dealer at all. You responded by telling my why you wanted one, and asked what I wanted to do with all kinds of dealers. My rhetorical answer was 'why should I care if someone else wants a dealer'--it really doesn't matter to me whether you want a dealer or how many dealers you want, etc., all I want is the ability to skip the overhead if I don't want it, rather than being forced into it by dealer-friendly regulations. You're not the first person to respond as though I'm trying to take away their dear friend the dealer, which is weird; I really don't understand why it bothers other people that I would prefer to buy a vehicle the same way I buy almost anything else these days, rather than being forced to go through a bunch of special car buying bs.
Several answers.
1) You're conflating the sales department and the service department. These are generally managed separately and have very different incentive structures. The fact that they are glued together by default right now is for historic reasons that have been enshrined in a lot of regulation and legal agreements, not because they have to be or because that's what's best for the consumer. Traditionally, in fact, the real money in franchise dealerships is in the service department, while the sales department is the cost of getting the franchise agreement (because the manufacturer really wants cars to get sold).
2) I would like to take my vehicle to any mechanic I choose. These days we're really not so far from the car telling the mechanic what module to replace, and there's no particular reason that can't be extended so that the manufacturer authorizes parts & service reimbursements based on reports from the car. There are some obvious questions that need to be worked out, like how reimbursement rates are set, how the manufacturer adjudicates grey areas, etc. Maybe there will be regional parts depots that also take problem cases. I dunno, will be interesting to see what happens. I imagine in the long run there will be some sort of authorized repair list that ends up somewhere between "anyone I want" and "only ford dealers".
3) I'd really like the manufacturers to do better quality control. "Warranty repairs" shouldn't mean "fixing mistakes that got missed at the factory" to the degree that it does these days. If the number of times I have to take the vehicle somewhere for a "warranty repair" is really low, I care much less about where I take it. Changing the way that cars are sold and service is delivered will change the manufacturers' incentives in this regard (make it more directly their problem, and make it harder to diffuse the costs).
4) As we move to electric vehicles the franchise dealership model that's already under strain because of lengthening service intervals is probably going to collapse as the electrics require essentially no routine maintenance. If people aren't coming in routinely, that means far fewer chances to sell the overpriced and unnecessary work that supports the profit margin in the service department.
It may not personally matter to me whether you get to keep your dealer or not, but the reality is that wanting all the car dealers to stick around is like wanting all the malls from the 80s to still be open--there are too damn many of them, they aren't all economically viable, a lot of them are going to close, and ones' personal feelings on the matter aren't going to have a lot of impact one way or the other. That will eventually force changes in how sales and service work (the manufacturers simply won't be able to assume that everyone can get to a franchise dealer, so if they want to sell cars in parts of the country without one they'll need another solution), which will put further pressure on the system. I expect that the personal sales experience will still be available for those who want it, but there will be a substantial premium associated with it and it might require a trip to a bigger city. On the up side, that makes it likely that whatever dealerships survive will be better overall, because people aren't going to pay extra for lousy service if they don't have to.
As I've learned from experience here: before anyone gets their pants in a wad, if just you know that your dealer sits at the right hand of god there's no need to try to convince me--assume they'll be one of the lucky ones that survives and move on.
Texasota
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Agreed. When I was researching the Ranger the biggest concern I had was its ability to tow my 4000 lb boat. I was apprehensive given that I would be going from a 6.0 Sierra 2500 to a midsize Ranger with a four cylinder. Our local dealership loaned me a Ranger for the day to test towing the boat. The time we spent towing convinced me that the Ranger was more than up to the job. Without that piece of mind I don't know if I would have ordered our Ranger.
TomC
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I just borrowed my neighbors truck. And my neighbor. I think the biggest selling point for the ranger are other owners. seems like some dealerships I went to were more interested in getting me into a F150. But thats kinda the point in this thread, in that we all have had wildly different experiences in dealing with dealerships, Ford and otherwise. You would think they could kinda standardize the customers experience with buying a vehicle or servicing a vehicle. Or what that vehicle costs.
Steven D Tipton
Well-Known Member
They should get some. Especially circleville Ohio Ford. Ranger XLT
Floyd
Well-Known Member
I assume you are talking hypothetically?
Do you have a source to buy outside of the dealer network?
If so. do you contend that such a purchase would result in a better price?
Who would do dealer prep?
Who would help the uniformed buyer with ordering the right vehicle with the right options to fit his needs?
Would a buyer go to an unaffiliated sales agency?
Would you simply order off the internet?
Where would a buyer go to shop, touch, and test drive?
How would you trade in your present vehicle?
Steven D Tipton
Well-Known Member
Most questions you asked, already have a answer. There's no reason for dealers, may be warranty work. Of course most of us would probably agree sub par on that. Caravan, vroom and other have shown they can cut a new path. You buy from carvana, if I can remember correctly 7 days 400 miles no hassle return. Show me a dealer doing that. I'm just pointing out, dealership are not really necessary anymore. They better wake up.
VAMike
Well-Known Member
no. I guess you've been reading this thread very selectively?
of course not, it's legally prohibited in my state because of the very powerful dealer lobby
of course it would--it would cut out a rent-seeking middleman (and if it wouldn't, the dealers wouldn't be lobbying so hard against it)
who does the dealer prep now? it certainly wasn't done properly in my case, and many others have reported similar issues. I think the last car I bought also had various dealer prep items that I needed to take care of myself. suffice it to say that I'm not real concerned about this "problem". I am certainly willing to forgo the quickie shine on the tires.
I don't care/not my problem/why are you asking me this? If someone wants that thing, they should certainly be free to hire someone to do that thing for them. In my case it took several rounds to 1) find a dealer willing to even do the order and 2) make sure they ordered the right things after they initially told me that what I wanted wasn't possible. I guess I could turn the question around: who helps uninformed dealers not waste the time of people who just want to buy a vehicle?
That would be great! They could turn the existing "build and price" that doesn't actually do anything into "build and price and order and deliver".
Don't know, don't care. Ask a person who wants that thing. I don't think I've ever seen my particular configuration on the floor of any local dealership, so it's not like I actually have the ability to do that now.
Edit to add: now that I think about it, the dealer didn't have any examples of the last car I bought in stock, either. I guess the ability to shop, test, and test drive only works well if you're happy to buy what they happen to have?
I didn't. If you actually want to know how do you trade in your vehicle, I guess that's something for you to figure out, not me.
You seem really, really, hung up on making sure that I have to have the car buying experience that you want. Must be nice for your peace of mind to benefit from a well funded lobby that uses the power of the government to make sure I don't have an option to do otherwise.
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Deleted member 1634
I'll throw out some answers to a few of your questions.
You can sell it on your own to a local person (Craigslist, FB Marketplace, putting it out at the end of the driveway with a sign, etc.).
You can sell it to a local used care dealer, there's plenty of those around.
And now you can even sell it to someone like Carvana and they'll come pick it up from you.
Most of the things I currently buy online are much cheaper than the same exact items in the store. That's one of the big reasons people buy stuff online, that and the convenience. So by that logic, we could safely assume buying online directly from the manufacturer would be cheaper.
You mean who would oversell all the unwanted and unneeded options and accessories to all the naïve and gullible buyers out there to milk them for every ounce of extra money they can?
That would be the dream! The dealer doesn't benefit me in any way. I do months and years of research to decided on a purchase like this and know way more than anyone at the dealership. Right now, I go in, tell them exactly what I want, they get it for me, and then spend hours and hours trying to get me to buy more things I've already told them multiple times I don't want or need, wasting my time. Being able to avoid the stupid dealer rigor moral would be so nice!
You can already sell your old vehicle in any number of ways. Trading it back to the dealer/manufacturer is only one of the options, and one of the least monetarily efficient methods.
You can sell it on your own to a local person (Craigslist, FB Marketplace, putting it out at the end of the driveway with a sign, etc.).
You can sell it to a local used care dealer, there's plenty of those around.
And now you can even sell it to someone like Carvana and they'll come pick it up from you.
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Floyd
Well-Known Member
Actually my questions were directed to VAMike since he posited the premise, but, here's a couple of related comments anyway...
The flaw in your logic is that it is HIGHLY unlikely that you could negotiate price with an online purchase.
You would simply pay the same "reduced" price that all the other naive and gullible online buyers pay.
I know some dealers have tried fixed pricing so everybody gets a "great" deal.
I simply will never buy from such a dealer.
I don't do 'Trade-ins" but most buyers do.
I too do my research and determine what I will pay before getting the first dealer price.
A properly negotiated price must take into account the fact that there are naive and gullible buyers ready to support the dealer's profit plan.
Let's face it, the most foolish waste of money in an automotive purchase is the price of financing, maintenance contracts, and extended warranties... not to mention leasing!
If you really want to be "monetarily efficient"...
Never buy on credit with a payment plan.
If you use a credit card,ALWAYS pay it off in full every month.
Do not borrow or "finance" your purchase, especially through a dealer.
If you pay cash, you are a lot less likely to buy those "unwanted and unneeded" options and accessories, even if you have the money for them.
Figure out what you want to buy, buy it, then keep it!
These things will leave more money in your pocket than all your best purchase price deals combined.
There is more to making a sound purchase than simply "cutting out the middle man".
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Floyd
Well-Known Member
Taking your responses in order...
1]Not at all, I cling to your every word!
2] Good point! It should not be so.
3] Moot point! you would simply transfer the dealers profit directly into the pockets of the manufacturer ( or its online sales company)
4] You have another somewhat valid point, although the dealer prep varies from dealer to dealer.
There have been several times when I would do it myself at the dealer, inspect the dealer's work, or refuse it altogether.
5]Another valid point, from your point of view, but certainly no incentive for the car company to see it that way.
Same with price, I usually tell the salesman that I want him to get rich on the ten customers before me and the ten after me... allowing him to be "magnanimous" in my case.
As you say... (other buyers choices are not my problem at the moment of sale)
On that last part... you're being disingenuous,... you obviously love to that sort of "wasted time"( as demonstrated here)
6]The existing "build and price" does not have a "make an offer" box and it would not work anyway. you would simply end up paying the same as the ten before and the ten after.
7] Of course they won't have your particular configuration that's why you place an order.
but they generally have an example with a real world impression.
My 2019 Ranger was a "pig in a poke" with conflicting promises. luckily it was perfect and the conflicts were salved. I still would have rather seen one before I ordered.
(It is a mite large afterall)
8] I don't trade , but many do.
9] this lastconjecture of yours is totally unfounded.
I am merely discussing the merits of dealerless purchase, hoping that you might disclose a better and cheaper way to purchase a new car.
A futile effort considering extant circumstances.
Not to worry though, from what I hear,
(hope not) soon....
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Deleted member 1634
I know it was directed towards Mike, but I feel relatively the same way as he does about this topic and felt I had something to add; to try and show that it's not "just him" who feels this way about dealers and the current methods.Actually my questions were directed to VAMike since he posited the premise, but, here's a couple of related comments anyway...
The flaw in your logic is that it is HIGHLY unlikely that you could negotiate price with an online purchase.
You would simply pay the same "reduced" price that all the other naive and gullible online buyers pay.
I know some dealers have tried fixed pricing so everybody gets a "great" deal.
I simply will never buy from such a dealer.
I don't do 'Trade-ins" but most buyers do.
I too do my research and determine what I will pay before getting the first dealer price.
A properly negotiated price must take into account the fact that there are naive and gullible buyers ready to support the dealer's profit plan.
Let's face it, the most foolish waste of money in an automotive purchase is the price of financing, maintenance contracts, and extended warranties... not to mention leasing!
If you really want to be "monetarily efficient"...
Never buy on credit with a payment plan.
If you use a credit card,ALWAYS pay it off in full every month.
Do not borrow or "finance" your purchase, especially through a dealer.
If you pay cash, you are a lot less likely to buy those "unwanted and unneeded" options and accessories, even if you have the money for them.
Figure out what you want to buy, buy it, then keep it!
These things will leave more money in your pocket than all your best purchase price deals combined.
There is more to making a sound purchase than simply "cutting out the middle man".
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of your argument for using dealers SEEMS to be based on the fact that YOU are a good negotiator and can get good deals/prices. Not that everybody can. And are also apparently accepting of the fact that a bunch of other people will pay for your "share" of the dealer profits. Despite also hating dealer profits, I simply can't get behind that attitude. I'm the kind of guy who will happily pay extra or go out of my way to help someone else, even at my own detriment. And before anyone says that's a stupid and naïve way to live life, I'll just say that it's only a stupid way if you consider money to be the most important aspect of life. Personally, I don't.
The rest of your post about the best way to save money I won't argue with, mostly because I don't disagree and wasn't trying to make that point. So I have nothing to say about it.
Floyd
Well-Known Member
Please don't confuse charity with personal responsibility.
Negotiation skills are like any other skills, available to everyone.
Skills which I have often lent to others when the need has arisen.
Price fixing for the purpose of fairness, on the other hand, will ALWAYS result in everybody paying more.
I don't have a "share" in your debt, or an obligation to pay it, but would gladly help you with the necessary skills to shop for the best buys.
Nobody "needs" a new car bad enough to to be pitied!
Compassion should be reserved for more important matters.
I don't think you are stupid or naive, nor is your position, however, I do think you are at least bordering on sanctimony by jumping to conclusions about what constitutes charitable activity on my part.
I would prefer to overlook that, rather than appear pharisaical by listing the details of my charitable activities.
Its all good.... Only God can look clearly upon the heart.
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